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Hi Lawrence I was wondering whether I would find you on this list. Glad to meet you here. I'm extremely impressed by the safety records at WKPP. I have no problem diving DIR, myself. I'm willing to learn from other people's experience. That's why I'm interested in this list. I think having a configuration "One Size Fits All" purposes sounds a damned good idea. I'm going there (not so) slowly. I can afford it. I'm afraid I'm almost the only one around, though. Not everybody runs a technical diving operation down here. Now you're asking me to stand in front of everybody and scream: You need Helium, drysuits, manifolds, no computers or you should not dive any more? Or you're an idiot? That's a way of communication, but, as Thomas noticed recently, even on this list some people seem to think it's NOT the DIR way, though. You now I have guts. And a big mouth. Next one who calls me zlskdgjc will verify it. I'd just rather use them to preach what people can understand. Step by step, brotha. Lee and I, with all that influence you think we have (unfortunately, we don't have that much), are trying for the moment to show that to be "cool" is NOT to touch the bottom of the Blue Hole (102 just under the Arch) and come up before the end of the single tank fearing for your life. Is NOT getting heavily drunk the evening before a deep dive. Make a stand and adopt DIR is a wishfull thinking. For the moment we're just trying to make a small stand and show that around 60, you'd rather be fully redundant. And trained. And responsible. And that's just the begining. I know you understand me. I'm doing my best here. To an extent as you say. Yes, helium will soon become more affordable. Inch'Allah. By that time hopefully there will be enough of a tech diving comunity so we can do the right move and even, one day, maybe, dare to call ourselves Technical Divers. Just kidding. One word about deep air, now. I know planes are much safer than cars. I still think for short distances cars are more practical, despite the increased risk. Don't come and tell me that you don't drive cars. Or ride motorcyles. The main problem of drinking and driving is not that you can kill yourself, for me, you're welcome to do it if that's what you want, it's that you can kill others who do not want it. As I told Thomas, I have experienced it, as a victim. This is why I don't like the comparison with narcosis. It does not seem apropriate to me. Yes, air is more risky. I'm not gonna discuss it. Step by step, that's all. Lawrence, with your friends and scooters, if you want to help me, next time you're in Dahab, instead of half-hiding let's do a big show-off. The helium is here, now. Let's demonstrate the ultimate coolness. As you know, Dahab crowd is very young, coolness is the most important thing in the world. We're trying to save some lives here. Too many corpses laying at the bottom of the Blue Hole. Hope to see you soon. Hugo. -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Orchard-London <lorchard@Ru*.co*> To: 'Club Red' <clubred@in*.co*> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 12:39 PM Subject: RE: I do care >Hi Hugo > >Good to see you on the list at last, now you can tap into one of the best >sources for DIR as we discussed in February. Mail me privately and I'll let >you have some other sources that may be of help. Do you have WWW access as >well as email down there in there in sleepy Sinai? > >Thomas' point about the comparison with drink driving was not that you might >be "hit" by a deep air diver, rather that you are the drink driver and >likely to crash and kill yourself, let alone risking others necks. > >I think you have summed up the problem, as it stands currently in Dahab, >very well. Though I'm afraid I dont agree with your proposed solution. >Having met you and Lee down there, I got the impression, you're quite >influential figures on the scene there, if you guys were to make a stand and >adopt DIR, I'm sure others would follow. Maybe you are doing this already to >an extent, though trying to help someone who is determined to "deep air" >dive is the same as advising a drunk driver how best to get home, you dont >do it, you take their keys away. At the very least having told them they're >an idiot (stroke), in no uncertain terms, you have nothing more to do with >them. In your case in will require guts, since it may impact on your lively >hood at first. However, in time it will > >The expense of helium is considerable out there I agree. From my >investigations with the AUF Group in Alexandria, this was mostly because you >had to buy the J cylinders in addition to the gas, ridiculous! Also for >example, BOC doesn't export it to Egypt in cryogenic form so is expensive >from the initial shipping costs. Further to this I had a brief communication >with Dave Thompson (as in the Inspiration rebreather) mentioning that he had >come up with a much cheaper option for Diver's Lodge, which involved getting >a whole bank brought down. Perhaps you could get in touch with him, he may >have some better ideas. Trimix diving is on the increase world wide and in >time this will increase the demand for it in Dahab and hopefully due to >increased bulk this will decrease the cost. > >Either way, from what I have experienced of the "deep air" syndrome in >Dahab, the main problem is not so much that there is no alternative, as its >a "macho" thing, your not a "real" diver unless you've been to the bottom of >the Blue Hole (115msw) on air and "faced your maker" type attitude. Now many >get sold on this ideal and the allure is great, especially out there in the >desert heat where most westerners seem to become a little addled. What >someone needs to do is sell these guys on the idea that doing that same dive >with an END of 30m & DIR is far, far cooler. Hugo you have been there and >done it, you should have no problem convincing others. Whilst I know many >divers are on a tight budget down there, they're also easily impressionable >and if they think the idea is cool enough they will find a way to afford the >helium, I'm sure of that. > >In my opinion Dahab, is one of the great diving "death zones" of the world, >it is human nature at its most insane. Which is a shame since it also has >some of the most magnificent sites to explore. I'm sure everyone on this >list will give you all the good advice you need to help in riding the region >of this madness. > >Give my regards to Lee, hope to get out there again one day to revisit Abu >Hilal with more scooters and mix etc. > >Best >Lawrence D. Orchard >Office Tel: +44 (0) 171 343 3601 >Home Tel: +44 (0) 1252 524795 >mailto:lorchard@ru*.co* > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Club Red [mailto:clubred@in*.co*] >Sent: 18 May 1999 20:42 >To: S I L E N T I M M E R S I O N >Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com >Subject: Re: I do care > > >Hi Thomas, > >I apreciate your constructive answer. I understand your point. I hope you >will understand mine. > >Dahab has a nasty reputation. Just jump off the reef table and dive as deep >as your conservation instinct allows you. 10-12 deaths a year. Many of them >those young instructors you're talking about. ALL of them recreational >divers, very short diving education, experience and of course equipment. > >There's now several ways to try and prevent the problem. The first one is to >say: Do not dive below 30m. Close our eyes and think as hard as we can: >Nobody should dive deeper than 30m on air. It has been tried. Sadly enough, >it does not work. Nobody ever stopped me from doing what I wanted. 315 ft, I >don't know if someone tried to stop you, but that day it didn't seem to >work. > >An other method is to say: Yes, I know an endless list of people past the >Arch on air. Yes, it is possible. The record shows though, far too many >people died. A quick analysis demonstrates that most if not all of those >fatalities are due to the usual lack of training, experience, knowledge, >equipment and general diving awareness. There's a way to dramaticaly >increase the chances of survival. It's called technical diving. > >As unbelievable as it might seem to you, we're hoping to save lives by >promoting deep air diving instead of blinding ourselves. We're trying to >offer a much safer alternative. We believe in education, not in forbidding. >The Prohibition did'nt work. It actually made the drinking problem worse, by >forcing people to hide and pretend they are not what they actually are. Note >that the drug prohibition doesn't seem to work either. > >I'm writing to you from Egypt. A country in which Helium is barely available >(we are the only center in Sinai offering it, among 100+ dive centers). >And outrageously expensive. Most of my students are resident professional >divers, making usually less than $1000 a month. But diving everyday, several >times usually. How can I tell them: the only way is DIR, as you define it? >And spending several hundred dollars each dive? > >Aside from all that, as far as I know nobody came with a satisfying >explanation about Rob Palmer's death. You can attribute it to whatever you >want. Endless discussions can follow. All that sounds sterile to me. Your >comparison between narcosis and drunk driving is wrong. After years of >heavy motorcycle racing I have been hit by a drunk driver, while I was >waiting at the stoplight on my motorcycle. I'm now doing deep open-water >diving, usually alone. My chances of being hit by a narced diver are pretty >slim. I would certainly act differently if I was doing cave diving, wreck >diving, or any kind of diving in which you rely on a team for your safety. > >Maybe all my thoughts have nothing to do on this list. Your problems seem to >be different. Are they really? Your philosophy seems extremely safe. Only a >lucky few can use it though. You probably could not use it when you went to >315ft. I'd just like to give a better chance of survival to the young >instructor you probably were at that time (by de-strokifying him, maybe?). > >Aside from the irrealistic use of mixed-gas (in most of the world), and of >drysuits (water temperature 30 degrees here in summer), I'm certain using >some of your methods will improve the safety record around here. There's >more subjects to be discussed. I'll put them on the table later on. > >Nice to meet you. > >Hugo. > >-----Original Message----- >From: S I L E N T I M M E R S I O N <silent@cu*.ne*> >To: Club Red <clubred@in*.co*> >Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 2:23 PM >Subject: Re: I do care > > >Hugo, > >What I was checking for is if you are a deep air guy. I know too well that >many instructors in your area like to breg about their personal depth >records. >The opinion about deep air on this list is VERY clear cut: Do not dive on >air below 100ft. >Now you might think, pfffffffff what crap that is... I can dive safely to >200ft or whatever your feeling about your comfort zone is. >The limit we decided for though is a very safe limit. You must agree that >there is minimal gas narcosis at this PO2 and PN2. >We do not only take N2 into consideration when we talk about narcosis, also >oxygen. >So any dive below 100ft/30m we use mix and keep the END at 100ft/30m. Now >the END we calculate using a different formula: (1-fHe)x(D+10)-10 >This takes oxygen into the consideration. >So, we dive any dive without any narcosis. This greatly enhances the dive >pleasure aswell as the safety. >I know you guys have a lot of 300ft deep air kings, young instructors that >like to get the buzz that accompanies the deep air dive. Don't get me wrong >Hugo, most on this list have done deep air, before this consensus was >reached about two-three years ago. I too have a 315ft dive on air and a >couple very close to that on my list. However, that time is years ago and >it will never be part of my diving again. >We believe that deep air diving is like putting a gun to your head and >spinning the chamber with one bullet in it. Do you feel lucky? >Rob Palmer was the last guy with brains that died, in your area, he was my >instructor a year before his unfortunate deep air tragedy. Did my Draeger >rebreather instr. trainer with him. >Rob had numerous deep air dives, so why did he die this tim on air? And >like him there are many more examples. >Crap about adaption to N2 narcosis are bullshit, that is not only our >finding but also backed up by studies that were done on the subject. Read >Bennet&Elliot if you would like to know more about that. >So basicly drunk driving and deep air are both very comparable exercises... >:-) Not my game. >The system you reffered to is called DIR and does not only work for cave >diving in Florida, but also for places where you and I are diving. I am in >Curaçao, the Dutch Caribbean. Very comparable with the Red Sea. Been in >Eilat so I know. >We use the DIr system all over the world, Florida caves, NW wreck diving, >Curaçao reef diving, Swedish deep wreck diving, asia wreck diving, >everywhere. The system does not change from it's basics wherever you go. >The experience it is backed up with is scary... It is developed over 20 >years, with the last refinements in the last 5 years. Used to be called >"Hogarthian" now it is "Doing It Right". >The main group that developed it is the WKPP, these cave divers have quite >interesting records on their name. Longest penetration, 18000ft, 3hr bottom >time, 8hr deco... >Some dives up to 15hrs total time. >All done with DIR gear and mentality. No accidents at all. >So since you decided to say that you would like to know a little more, I >decided to give you some info. Whatever you decide to do with it is your >thing. >You can ask any question you like about our methods, I will answer as good >as possible. >Could be interesting for you and for me. >BTW the stroke thing is for guys not diving DIR, diving deep air and more >of such stupidity. So whatever you want to be called is up to you I guess. >:-) > >Looking forward to your reply, > >THOMAS > > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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