Mike, if I could not reach my valves, I would not dive. If I were as
stupid as this guy obviously is, I would not dive. You are wasting your
time with this guy, but maybe you will get though to some of those who
really want to learn. We have a tape that explains all of this. It is
called "Doing it Right II", available from Extreme Exposure or Halcyon.
Our methods are DIR, not "Hogarthian", by the way.

Your arguements are quite correct,  and you need to add for this bozon
that when a valve rolls off it often breaks off as well - that means the
left one breaks with the gas turned OFF. Explain what that means to this
genius.

I can't waste any more time with it - it is just too obvious. Knock
yourself out. These guys need to move over to Branford and learn to
speak Goober with the rest of the farm animals. The thing about Brits is
that when they decide to go stroke, they do it well.

Mike Rodriguez wrote:
> 
> At 07:31 PM 4/20/99 +0100, Stuart Morrison wrote:
> 
> Hello Stuart,
> 
> I'm not a WKPP diver, and I sometimes disagree with them, but
> in this case, I think they're right.  Please take this post
> as a constructive criticism.  I'm not bashing you, just giving
> you my opinion.
> 
> >Is there anyone out there who is one hundred percent sure that in an
> >emergency they can honestly say they would reach the valves EVERY SINGLE
> >TIME?
> 
> With the possible exception of being in a very tight restriction,
> yes, I can always reach all my valves every single time.  If this
> were not the case, I would spend a lot of time in a pool or cavern
> basin messing with my strap adjustments until I *could* reach the
> valves every single time -- even when I'm cold or tired or in an
> awkward position or weird attitude in the water.  Every single time!
> 
> >All it takes is one time to fail and, basically you die. I hear loads
> >of rhetoric but not a lot of justification to your arguments. Have I just
> >dared challenge the High Lords of the WKPP or is there a more practical
> >reason why this method is flawed?
> 
> There are probably other reasons, but some that immediately come
> to mind are that to use the isolator as you described requires:
> 
> 1. Your long hose be on the left.
> 2. Your pressure gauge be on the right.
> 3. Your backup regulator be on the right.
> 
> The problem with number one and three is this: since you donate
> the long hose, which you're breathing off the left post, your
> out-of-air buddy exiting the cave in front of you has no way
> to tell you that the valve has rolled off; a roll-off is most
> likely to happen during an emergency than at any other time.
> He/she is already out of air, so when your donated regulator
> stops delivering, he/she thinks you're out of air now too and
> you're both going to die.  If he/she is ever going to panic,
> this will be when it happens.  The long hose belongs on the
> right post so your buddy will never experience a roll-off
> during an air emergency.  If your backup stops delivering, you
> check the left post, find it off, and turn it on.  Your
> buddy never even knows this happened and doesn't freak.  You
> don't panic because you're watching your gauge (with the
> isolator open) and know that there's plenty of air left
> for both of you.
> 
> The problem with number two: the gauge is reading an unused
> tank when the isolator is closed.  This makes it useless most
> of the time.  If you forget the isolator is closed, you'll
> get an unpleasant surprise when your left tank runs out of
> air.  At this point, you'll be at halves, not thirds.  If an
> air emergency occurs at this point, there will be insufficient
> air available (only 50%) to get both you and your buddy out
> of the cave.  At least one of you (your buddy) will drown.
> If your buddy panics at the realization he/she is about to
> die, you may drown too.  Forgetting to periodically open
> the isolator seems improbably now, while you sit comfortably
> at your PC, but when bad things are happening in a cave with
> poor visibility, high-flow, and lots of restrictions, the
> task-loading will make you forget.  Rigging such that as many
> things as possible 'take care of themselves' frees you to deal
> with the task-loading that might otherwise kill you.  Leaving
> the isolator open allows it to 'take care of itself'.  You
> don't even have to think about it the vast majority of the
> time.
> 
> >I'm assuming most of the hostility is coming from the US. I don't dive open
> >water except for training purposes, so I'm speaking from the standpoint of
> >cave diving. European cave diving is a million miles from the springs of
> >Florida, so I have a slightly different view.
> 
> You're right.  Your caves are different from ours in Florida.  But
> the reasons for the Hogarthian configuration still apply because
> the relevant elements are the same in all submerged caves
> everywhere.
> 
> >After three or four hours in
> >flowing, zero vis cave water, barely above freezing, I cannot say for sure
> >that I could shut down my valves safely.
> 
> Stuart, if your hands get too cold for you to confidently work
> your valves, how can you be sure you could work your isolator
> in the same conditions?  What would happen if you *thought*
> you were turning the isolator but really weren't and didn't
> notice due to cold?  You'd continue diving until your left tank
> was empty, then you'd realize what happened, but if you're too
> cold to work your valves, how could you work your isolator?
> You'd be out of air and unable to access the remaining 50%
> of your air.
> 
> If your hands really are getting that cold, I think the way
> to solve the problem is to get better exposure protection
> or to make shorter dives.  Your solution to one problem (cold
> hands) is introducing a myriad of other, I think more serious,
> problems.
> 
> Even if it is the case that your hands will become numb no
> matter what you do to protect them, then isn't it better to
> leave the valves alone (and open) all the time since,
> statistically, needing to work your isolator is a very rare
> event.  Opening and closing your isolator sets you up
> for the much more likely event of human error?
> 
> >I can reach my valves just about every time I try it, but I cannot convince
> >myself that I will do it when I need to. The method I use is developed from
> >that used by the British Royal Navy, who have one of the best safety
> >records amongst the military.
> 
> This may be so... I don't know one way or the other.  What I
> do know is that just because a lot of people do it, doesn't
> mean it's the right way to do it.  This especially applies to
> government agencies who's inertia usually puts them way behind
> the current state-of-the-art.
> 
> >I'm not knocking the originators of the Hogarthian rig, I'm knocking the
> >disciples and WKPP wannabees who blindly do without thinking and cannot
> >tolerate being questioned.
> 
> I don't blindly follow anyone into something as dangerous as
> cave diving.  I've really thought this out.  I've read opinions
> in favor and against Hogarthian, and I've read your posts and
> diligently considered the methods you propose, but I just can't
> logically justify them.
> 
> Take a step back and carefully analyze what you propose.  Try
> to think of everything that can go wrong in a cave and how
> each of those events would affect you when diving using your
> methods vs Hogarthian.  I think you'll find that your methods
> are not optimal.
> 
> You're an adult and, I'm sure, a capable cave diver.  You're
> certainly capable of making informed decisions about how to
> rig your gear, but I think and hope that if you carefully
> and thoroughly consider all the issues, you'll change your
> mind.
> 
> In any case, I wish you safe diving.
> 
> -Mike Rodriguez
> <mikey@ma*.co*>


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