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Al,
I would not use this site for the navigation exercise, I have better
sites for conducting this skill. This is one of three situations where the
students would not be under my control, the other two being an A.I.
escorting a student back to shore and the other an A.I. monitoring the the
rest of the class while we conduct emergency ascent skills.
The current standards version is dated 1996 with updates that have
followed. It is printed on paper about 5 by 7 inches, your version is close
but there have been significant changes most notable is buddy breathing as
well as emergency buoyant ascents that are conducted in open water are
banned in the basic scuba class. Apparently a jury believed that these
skills were not proven to be nessassary for entry level training.
I really do take the "in control " requirement seriously and
sometimes feel like a sheep dog out there running circles around my flock.I
keep my class size down also, usually about 4 students and one or two A.I.'s
----
David
Central Washington Scuba Center
www.cwscuba.com
----
-----Original Message-----
From: KybrSose@ao*.co* <KybrSose@ao*.co*>
To: jamie@cw*.co* <jamie@cw*.co*>
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: Learning to identify and minimize risk - planet of the apes
part two
>In a message dated 9/21/98 10:31:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>jamie@cw*.co* writes:
>
>> Al,
>> I never said I personally take basic scuba Classes to this site. The
naui
>> standards say the STUDENT cannot exceed 60' not the Bottom cannot exceed
>> 60'. I always take my students to a variety of dive sites, sometimes
>because
>> certain skills work better at some sites sometimes just to increase the
>> students exposure to different enviornments, I would not hesitate to
take
>> students to this site to get certain things accomplished. If you have a
set
>> of standards(which by the are outdated) you will also find the part
about
>> the students shall remain under the instructors control and sight at all
>> times until skills have been completed. So with vis that runs about 5-15
>ft.
>> my students aren't getting far from me and I wont get anxeity problems
over
>
>
> David,
>
> The standards, <which I have the updates for, the manual I have started
>being updated in 1991, its a second hand one, with current updates, I
believe>
>require navigation by using underwater terrain. While with a 75 fsw bottom
in
>15 fsw vis you could maintain standards, you seem to say this dive site
>varies greatly. What happens on a day with bad vis, and you students get a
>little deeper than they need to before you can correct them. How much time
>would it take for your open water divers to get out of control?/. I am not
>talking about experienced divers , or advanced classes, but open water
people,
>that was the original arguement.
>
>You seem to say thats its okay, even tho you dont do it.
>
>If its so ok, why dont you do it?
>
>And i know what the manual says about control, but i live in the real world
>here.
>
>al marvelli
>
>
>> ----
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: KybrSose@ao*.co* <KybrSose@ao*.co*>
>> To: jamie@cw*.co* <jamie@cw*.co*>; scubait@ix*.ne*.co*
>> <scubait@ix*.ne*.co*>
>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> Date: Monday, September 21, 1998 6:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: Learning to identify and minimize risk - planet of the apes
>> part two
>>
>>
>> >In a message dated 9/21/98 9:13:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> jamie@cw*.co*
>> >writes:
>> >
>> >> Al,
>> >> Heres some info on Mukilteo State Park:
>> >> 1) State park is open to divers of all certitification levels
>> >> 2) The "500' slope" starts about 30 yards from shore.
>> >
>> > So 200 feet out from shore you could have open water students
floating
>> over
>> >150- 200 fsw, or more?
>> >
>> >You dont see a problem with this?
>> >
>> >> Having explained this I believe Garrett was responding to some
idiots
>> >> blanket statement about taking students to dive sites where they
could
>> >> exceed the depth limits of their gas is criminally dangerous. The
words
>> >> "tunnel
>> >> vision" and "this guy doesn't live in the real world" come to mind
when
>> I
>> >> read statements like that.
>> >
>> >That was me. I stand by my statement. You would seem to be guilty of
>> myopia,
>> >in that you cant see the potential danger of your dive site. Why cant
you
>> >teach open water somewhere else? somewhere safer?
> >Furthermore did you see the conditions on both my statement and
Garrett's??
>>
>> >> I would not define the above slope as a "hard bottom" and the
last
>> >time
>> >> I checked my agencies training standards there was no mention of a "
>hard
>> >> bottom" requirement.
>> > The NAUI standards that I have , dated 1991, list the following:
>> >
>> >Openwater I course standards
>> >
>> > IV Required course minimums
>> > G. Thirty feet nine meters is the max depth for the first open
water
>> >training dive and sixty feet 18 meters is the max depth for any open
water
>> >training dive during the course
>> >
>> >and
>> >
>> > VII Skill performance objectives
>> >
>> > F.air consumption/navigation
>> > 2. using environmental navigation aids and a compass, travel
>> underwater
>> >to a designated location for a set period of time.
>> >
>> >
>> > So tell me, dont you need to be within sight of a "hard bottom"< as
>> opposed
>> >to "bluewater"> as to satify both the above requirements??
>> >
>> >Al Marvelli
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >In a message dated 9/20/98 2:22:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> >> >scubait@ix*.ne*.co* writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >> And, if you remeber correctly, my example was a shore dive with a
>> slope
>> >> that
>> >> >> oculd
>> >> >> reach 500 feet. Should open water students be diving there?
That's
>> the
>> >> >> question I
>> >> >> addressed.
>snip
>> >> >
>> >> > Garrett,
>> >> >
>> >> > How far is this slope? The continental shelf drops off some 40
>miles
>> >> >out to sea, but I think you have a more dramatic slope in mind.
> >> > I cannot believe you would actually use the phrase "open water
>> >students",
>> >> >conjuction with the phrase " 500 feet". This is beyond ridiculous.
>All
>> >> >agencies limit their open water students to 60 fsw or so of depth,
and
>> >> >require hard bottom sites for this training. Most recommend
additional
>> >> >training before diving more advanced sites. Maybe you need to spend
>> >> > The original example concerned diving the top of the Hydro
>
--
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