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> Mike, what is the bigger error, that students have the gall to think they > can dive without experience, or that instructors take their money, risk be > damnned???? Obviously... the student :-) (hey you left it open ended...) Also how is an instructor supposed to always be able to ferret out every student who is lying, or simply self-deluded? Relying on the perfect instructor is not a perfect solution. > But the instructor has the final say. He is the final stop gap. The student is the one to jump in the water. They are the final arbiter. > The ratio > can never be 50/50 or 100/100. I would suggest 1000/300 if you must use these > absurd numbers. No Al, there is nothing absurb. I might be willing to say they are equally liable, but IMO certainly no one is more at fault than the diver who puts themselves so far beyong their abilities. The point I tried to make that you ignored is that the paradigm I am proposing works BEYOND the classroom. Yours stops there. If they student can't make decisions inside class for themself, how do you expect them to make them on their own, when NO ONE except themselves is there to protect them? > Personally Mike, I think these rebreathers are really a crap shoot, Agreed, ignore the rebreather case. What skills of the common training courses for tech diving can't be well practiced by the student? Pretty soon here Al I'm going to have to conclude that you can't name one. concede the point. A student has it well within their power to practice the skills for any of the common tech classes. You might argue the students WONT, but that does not mean they could not. > comment, and I hope he wont mind it. But thats a whole different conversation > and not one I wanted to fuse into this discussion, thus the dodge Mike. Agreed that breathers are quite a unique animal, but as I said there are plenty of other types of training going on that we can attempt to help improve. > We certainly can, but which is more important? The instructor is the one > more likely to have contact with the larger number of students right? He is > the one who will make more judgement calls right Mike?? I disagree. (where's Fred we can fight over fractions and percentages..) how many of your dives are with an instructor with you being a student? Less than 10%, probably less than 5%. Thus the other 90%+ of the time YOU have to be RESPONSIBLE for YOU. If you cannot demonstrate that responsibility in class, you are not going to demonstrate it on your own. > while the student does make his dives mostly without supervision, he does this > because the instructor sold him the cards that allow him to do what he is > doing right?? He has to buy fills, equipment, boat spots etc, and without the > necessary bona fides, He aint getting in right Mike? Wrong. I could arrange for a 2 stage mix dive this weekend. Putting air, mix, argon, whatever the heck I want in my doubles, stages, etc. I have no mix certification, no mix training. You cannot count on any obstacles in my path to exceed my abilities, other than me knowing when to say when. Its Thurs afternoon now. I could have it all set up by tomorrow afternoon. There is no instructor to save my butt. > Isnt a good instructor saying "no", or better saying "not yet, I will tell you > when" , better than relying on a diver's own self assesment? What is better is demanding both parties participate. Both can be flawed. Al you cannot guarantee a perfect instructor making perfect judgement calls about a students capabilites. Why do you insist on minimizing the responsibility of the student diver? I'm not saying the instructor has no role. I am saying we are ignoring the very important role of the student. Why is everyone so afraid of this? Is everyone so afraid of having to own up to it when they screw up? > holes in their shells, like they all were attacked by acid rain. very strange > and sad to see . We recovered a sample for the folks at coney island aquarium, > if I find out anything significant I will let you know. Anything killing lobster without making them useful eats needs to be stopped. can we agree on that? :-) Mike -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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