yeah, so there!

the swede brothers are tougher than wolf pussy...I hope that translates
well.

Trout

----------
From: Ingemar Lundgren <ingemar.lundgren@mb*.sw*.se*>
To: Jess Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>; Rubrifolia@ao*.co*;
wwm@sa*.ne*; Kevin@So*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Cc: cavers@ca*.co*; kirvine@sa*.ne*
Subject: SV: A Call to Arms
Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 8:39 PM

You wrote:

>Its all warm water, blue water diving....
>As far as I am aware not one of you DIR big guns has ever come up
>Northeast to
>dive...

I can tell you fool, that DIR works very good in ANY enviroment. I just
came home from a week of cave exploration north of the fucking arctic
circle in VERY cold water. The cavesystem is called Plura and lies in north
Norway. The Norteast US waters you are diving in is considered warm by me.
Total penetration on this dive was 1200 meters and max depth was 80 meters
total time in water was 2 hours and 20 min. This dive is scandinavias
longest and deepest cave dive. Without DIR config and Gavin scooters it
would have been extremley hard to do. For us this was a very easy dive.
..Our dive group ( The BSTD) all dives DIR and uses technicues based on
WKPP. 
As for deep, cold and bad vis wreckdiving i could also tell you of some
dives that would make you tremble in fear when you are only used to weanie
dives like the Doria. I laugh loud every time i hear you NE strokes mention
the "mighty" Doria. That is a good vis warm water dive by our standards. 
I hope this ends the discusion of DIR and cold water. I am tierd of hearing
of people that has only cold water and bad visibility to brag with and
nothing else claiming that DIR is not for cold water. The ONLY modification
we have done to DIR is using dry gloves. 
If you want to learn anything about diving you should start listening to
the WKPP. What they preach goes for every kind of diving in any condition,
period. 

----------
> Från: Jess Armantrout <armantrout@wo*.at*.ne*>
> Till: Rubrifolia@ao*.co*; wwm@sa*.ne*; Kevin@So*.co*;
techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Kopia: cavers@ca*.co*; kirvine@sa*.ne*
> Ämne: Re: A Call to Arms
> Datum:  den 1 september 1998 21:03
> 
> Steve Berman, so the story goes, came up to dive the Doria a while back
and
> kicked ya'll's asses.
> 
> ----------
> > From: Rubrifolia@ao*.co*
> > To: wwm@sa*.ne*; Kevin@So*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > Cc: cavers@ca*.co*; kirvine@sa*.ne*
> > Subject: Re: A Call to Arms
> > Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 12:54 PM
> > 
> > In a message dated 8/31/98 10:31:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> wwm@sa*.ne*
> > writes:
> > 
> > << 
> >  Would you call cave diving, ocean diving, drift diving, mixed gas
> diving, SC
> >  rebreather diving, scooter diving and wreck diving collectively a
> "narrow"
> >  application?>>>
> > 
> > Its all warm water, blue water diving....
> > As far as I am aware not one of you DIR big guns has ever come up
> Northeast to
> > dive...none of you have the remotest clue what the boats up here do and
> have
> > to put up with on a regular basis....by narrow application, I am also
> > referring to the idea that at least I have that you all only deal with
> already
> > extremely capable and motivated divers......
> >  
> >  > it has also been very vigorously, aggressively, promoted by people
> >  >who have very large agendas
> >  
> > >> In other words you have a big problem with the WKPP. Maybe we're
> missing
> >  something here. I think you need to stop beating around the bush and
> tell us
> >  what is wrong with having a socalled agenda in favor of safety,
against
> >  foolish and proven dangerous practices and in favor of a team oriented
> dive
> >  philosophy. The basis for DIR is that you dive as part of a team and
> your
> >  team is an essential part of your life support system and vice vera. 
> What's
> >  your problem with that agenda?>>>
> > 
> > Not a thing...there are many things that you all do very well...and
what
> you
> > all have achieved is truly in the realm of awesome...you all certainly
> have a
> > huge investment in the WKPP project itself....ego and political and
> financial
> > (which is fine, just needs to be identified) and you (thats the
> figurative
> > plural) seem to carry that over to this forum....solo diving or a team
of
> one
> > is not a sin, it is a fact........we do not get to hear about your
bends
> > incidences...or for that matter any of your near incidences....and they
> have
> > to have occurred.....you demand openess from everyone else as
information
> > relevant to  the accident prevention process and yet do not
> reciprocate......
> > 
> > but attacking the KPP was not the point of the post.....it doesn't
> interest
> > me, I like the good stuff you do and am very capable of putting the
crap
> in
> > the litter box....  ..for people who beat the living daylights out of
> anyone
> > who has the unmitigated gall to disagree with one iota of what you
> proclaim,
> > you sure have thin skins ......
> > 
> > I simply said that I was leary of the proselytizing that DIR is the
ONLY
> way
> > to go in refering to a web page that proposed to list "instroketers"
and
> > "murder co-conspirators".....DIR can be a place to EVOLVE to, should
your
> > brain pan and type of diving require it, but not all diving will or
> > does......it also seems to me that DIR is or should be about a hell of
a
> lot
> > more than gear and cards...
> > 
> > a post a while back mentioned that somone  took the trimix course so
that
> they
> > could feel comfortable at 130 ft.....excuse me???isn't the cart before
> the
> > horse here? Shouldn't they feel comfortable at 130 before taking the
mix
> > course.....it seems to me that people are loading up on gear and pretty
> big
> > concepts way before they are capable of handling them.........
> > 
> >  >however, there are other types of divers
> >  >equally skilled at acheiving their goals who put equally intensive
> thought
> >  and
> >  >work into their gear and technique....they simply have not chosen to
> say
> >  that
> >  >they are the only ones who have the right way......
> >  >
> >  
> >  >>The above is a creative way of describing "personal preference". 
> Personal
> >  prefrence is one of the most dangerous and insidious attitudes in
diving
> and
> >  eventually this mindset will get you or your buddies killed. Personal
> >  preference is the hallmark of a stroke.>>>
> > 
> > I am not talking about personal preferences here....I am talking about
> diving
> > that has been very well tailored to meet its environment.....something
> you all
> > have done for what you do, but what has also been done up here for this
> > place.....I submit that the hallmark of a stroke is the inability to
> recognize
> > other equal forms of intellligence at work......
> > 
> > you all have created teams that have achieved the previously
> > unimaginable....something that could only have occurred with phenomenal
> > teamwork and dedication to that team work and are making a valiant
> attempt to
> > share what you all perceive as the best way....thank you, but I just
wish
> you
> > could see some of the "DIR" conceptualizations and confabulations that
> one
> > sees up here on these boats....it can get pretty bizarre....things are
> getting
> > lost in the translation, maybe, see Joe diver doesn't have your goals
or
> > motiviations.....what does he need this phenomenal dedication and
mindset
> and
> > direction for?  Hes going diving, dude, got some really cool stuff,
> > too...shoulda seen the instructor, too, really buff...gotta start going
> to the
> > gym......tells great stories, man....
> > 
> > So, of course, you will immediately respond well, thats not DIR...well,
> no,no
> > its not....but that doesn't solve the prob.....
> > 
> > one of the points trying to be made with the previous post was that
often
> it
> > seems that people are making the mistaken assumption that all this
> particular
> > gear with just this particular setup will miraculously render them
> somehow
> > safer than those godless heathen strokes.....you guys are good at
> soundbites,
> > I'll give you that....they are missing the perhaps simply all too
obvious
> > point (to you)  that a diver even beginning to approach 'technical '
> needs
> > vast amounts of time in the water and a proper or healthy (I know I'm
> heading
> > for trouble here) mindset and self awareness....gear alone or gear set
up
> > alone or the person who taught you how to clear your mask will not or
do
> not
> > make you a capable diver......
> >  
> >  >>BTW is Rubrifolia some sort of dermatological disorder?>>
> > 
> > Rubrifolia is Latin nomencalture for a rose, I thought you were the
> science
> > guy....
> >  
> >  ,
> >  
> > 
> >  
> --
> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
----------

--
Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.

Navigate by Author: [Previous] [Next] [Author Search Index]
Navigate by Subject: [Previous] [Next] [Subject Search Index]

[Send Reply] [Send Message with New Topic]

[Search Selection] [Mailing List Home] [Home]