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I'm sorrry I offended your delicate sensibilities, it won't happen again. My point is that there are a couple of ways of learning things, 1. The hard way, which I subscribe to most of the time and 2. Listening and perhaps even trying the techniques used by people who have already learned the hard way. You are the one who brought up the wkpp, and in effect said that stuperwings are needed if you use argon unless you want to join the wkpp, then single wings are OK. This is bizarre logic and the kind of stupid rationalization which takes place on these lists all the time. There is nothing wrong with being a contrarian, but using such stupid logic that argon requires stuperwings is more than I can take. Jim Sender: Tristan Simonds Date: 7/17/98 12:33 AM >Jim, > >I never even hinted that the WKPP does not know what they are doing. I have >much respect for their work and experience. I thought this feed had >something to do with OMS wings and the pros and cons. The fact they do not >use them is a decision they have made. I am not the sort to do what the >'Jones's do' but do what I feel is good and safe. This does not imply in >any way that I do not respect the work or abilities of the WKPP. An >intelligent person will do research and make decisions on their findings not >on what is preached or sold. I believe someone in this thread stated that >we should not listen to what some instructor or dive shop owner is trying to >sell us, just for the purpose of profit. Now, should that mentality also >follow through to other groups that preach to us about what they think? I >do not discount the groups, the shop owners, nor the instructors, rather I >listen and learn what they have to say and make reasonable decisions based >on that. And so far this list has just repeatedly said 'bondage wings >suck!' and 'strokes use them!' I have heard very little talk of why. Your >response to me is no different than the general discussion, you had no >reasonable response to either two points I made so you attempted to put me >down by reading something from my message that was not there. Again I will >repeat, I never even hinted that the WKPP does not know what they are doing. >I have much respect for their work and experience. And I would like to >hear your response to the multiple points of failure that are created by >Argon or the justification that OMS wings have caused the deaths of human >beings during dive accidents. If you just wish to attempt to insult me, go >find a chat room on AOL and flirt with little girls. > >Tristan > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jim Cobb [mailto:cobber@ci*.co*] >> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 1998 9:11 PM >> To: Tristan Simonds >> Cc: techdiver >> Subject: RE: bondage wing challenge was >> >> >> Yeah, those goofy WKPP guys, hehehe. They do those lame old 200+min >> bottom times at 280'. I mean, what do they know, hehehe. Tristan, they >> use argon and standard wings, they must be nuts, complete idiots. And >> they must be suicidal, as diving with argon and standard wings is a death >> sentence. You oughta go down there right now and set 'em straight before >> someone gets killed. Problem is they are hard to get ahold of, they are >> either a couple of thousand feet back into a cave or doing body recoverys >> of stuperwings users. Well, maybe one has an answering machine and you >> can leave a message. >> >> On 7/16/98 6:49 PM Tristan Simonds wrote: >> >> >Mike, >> > >> >It's good to see someone that is looking at this issue with an objective >> >point of view. It seems to me that someone must be paying these guys to >> >slam OMS wings. There are a couple of points that were overlooked. >> > >> >1) Counting on your drysuit for secondary boyancy is a problem if your >> >running argon. There are more points of failure (tank, valve >> and regulator, >> >limited supply of gas) >> > >> >2) The recent deaths of divers is being connected with these wings but I >> >have seen no proof that this was the cause. It may be possible >> that there >> >are so many more of these wings in the water that the odds of >> having them on >> >the back of a victim is that much greater. >> > >> >I dive argon with a dry suit and the bondage wings and feel safe and >> >comfortable. Most of the people I have dove with so far that are using a >> >wing are using oms wings. I can only think of two that are not >> and they are >> >primarily in caves and hope to dive with the WKPP. >> > >> >Thanx for the objective opinion, too bad people are not listening. >> > >> >Tristan >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Mike Zimmerman [mailto:zimmmt@au*.al*.co*] >> >> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 1998 1:04 PM >> >> To: Jim Cobb >> >> Cc: techdiver >> >> Subject: Re: bondage wing challenge was >> >> >> >> >> >> Jim, >> >> >> >> you guys make me laugh. You find it so completely impossible to find >> >> anything positive about the OMS wings. When you are one SO one-sided >> >> how can you expect to have any credibility? >> >> >> >> I've been focusing on ONE very specific concept. Is having a >> >> backup bladder more of a plus than it is a minus? And you guys >> >> keep dodging the question like Custer trying to deny he was losing >> >> at his last stand. >> >> >> >> You insist everyone spend $1500 for a custom DUI drysuit (gotta >> >> Do It Right >> >> after all) just so they can dive high capacity tanks, when then >> >> could spend >> >> maybe an incremental $100 and purchase OMS dual-bladder wings from >> >> the get-go and again have the backup buoyancy. No one says you have >> >> to put the bungees on. >> >> >> >> As for the deaths, 2 things. >> >> >> >> First the bungees may or may not have had anything to do with them, >> >> but that has NOTHING to do with the argument of backup buoyancy as >> >> a plus or not. >> >> >> >> Second, we have at least one diver (and I suspect the Doria diver >> >> would as well) that was wearing a drysuit, what you preach for backup >> >> buoyancy. Maybe the problems were more in gear configuration >> >> (ie being so comletely negative) and not in their choice of wings.... >> >> shall we blame the drysuit instead? >> >> >> >> Anyway I'm done. I've chased you over the entire issue, you refuse >> >> to stand still and give an answer to the question at hand. >> >> >> >> In case you've forgotten it, the question is to explain how >> >> the 2nd bladder adds more failure points than wearing a drysuit. >> >> >> >> When you care to stop dodging and to answer, just let me know. >> >> >> >> Mike >> >> -- >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Learn About Trimix At http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html >> >> >> -- >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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