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John, thanks for putting this out - and making my point. You really do not understand, do you? The guy took a student out for a 300 foot dive and let her die. Good job. The many reasons , or potential reasons , are all there for everyone to see - take your pick. The worst is the bottle marking and the use of "position" as identification. She breathed the wrong gas. Our way is the correct way, yours is wrong, ESPECIALLY in teaching, and I have the body recovery to prove it. When you have the experience I have ( see my other post on the dive I did two days ago) , you can ask me who trained and certified me. It sure as hell was not your organization. It was me myself. While some of our guys are instructors, they do not teach this crap, and we have made it clear to Mount how we do teach what we teach. Ask them, and by the way, the reason we had to start a new agency was becuase of the bull like this, and the fact that guys like you , who by your own words have no working understranding of what we do , are effectively on a level - playing field with us under the IANTD / TDI / ANDI or whatever banner - people want more than that, and we provide it. I do teach, I just do not certify. How's that? John Walker wrote: > > Whitney L. Irvine wrote: > > > > Let me just point out that the teachings, philosphies, and practices > > of "instructors" out there for these so-called "tech" agencies are the > > product of the mindset that produces them. > > Whitney, have you ever been certified by a technical agency? If not, > were did you learn how to dive caves and mix? If so, which agenies? > > >If > > one is taught fear of gas, fear of deco, and red-faced, freeflowing , > > sweat dripping hoovery, then that is what we will get. > > If one is to fear gas, deco and what ever the hell hoovery is (must be > one of thoughs country terms) why would they want to involve themselves > in gas, deco and hoovery? > > > Here are the facts of life, or death, as it were, in the case of Jane > > Orenstein: it was her first trimix dive, the "instructor" tries to take > > her to 300 feet and got 272 before weenieing, > > I could of sworn that the dive was terminated due to problems that > Jane was having. > > > she was diving new > > drysuit, ridiculous bondage wings that did not work, an inflator that > > did not work ( instructor obviously a real smart guy ), unmarked tanks > > on either side with useless gases and she breathed the wrong one > > If a new dry suit is something that I should not dive with, than how > long should I wait before I do? I personally do not care for BONDAGE > wings but, are you sure that the one's Jane was diving with as well as > the inflator were inoperatable? I can certainly understand diving with a > scooter, that wearing all your stages on one side could be advantagous > BUT in an intructional invironment (while not caving nor scootering) > would if make it more complicated or confusing to were the stages as per > typical technical agency standards, highest pO2 towards on the right. > Also, I don't believe any other standards in which way to wear your > stages really excisted prior to these standards. If they had, please let > me know. > > > , a dive > > communication device on all deco bottles ( really stupid from a task > > loading a CO2 point of view), a bunch of ridiculous paraphanalic > > inappropriate gear and nonsense, a stroke rig complete with stuffed hose > > HUMMMM, how did the stuffed hose play a part in this? > > > and other stupidity ( I am sure this was not her idea ), she has > > buoyancy problems due to the crap wings , inflator, and new drysuit, she > > Was the new dry suit to small?(i.e. not anough lift) > > > breaths the wrong gas all the way up, she feels like she is out of gas , > > although she is not, her "instructor" can see and admits she is having > > buoyancy and breathiung problems ( we are talking about a triathelete > > who appears to have about a .35 SAC rate ) and responds by sending her > > off on her own and not staying with her, she blacks out and or toxes and > > blacks out and drops, the instructor does nothing. He is "afraid" for > > his own weenie little pink ass. I do the recovery using the same size or > > smaller tanks as this "instructor" ( Carmichael used aluminum 80's), > > only I have 19 minutes AT THE BOTTOM and come back with 1500 PSI ( I > > dove the same tanks in cave the day before and had to do a lot of work > > when I found the body), then decoed out on the correct schedule and went > > Why did you not refill your tanks, was it the cost? Jane was'nt going > anywhere. This would seem by many to be alittle careless in > itself. ( Oh! sorry. Im speaking for others, like Dan > does). > > > immediatley back with Volker , I used 400 PSI this time, and Volker used > > half an 80 stage bottle , > > If Dan only used half of an 80, was that a travel gas or a bottom gas. > If it was a bottom gas, how come he only had an 80, and why is'nt he > running his botton gas in his doubles? > > > and we had to drag the body all over the place > > to get it free of the rubble after we refound it again. We then came up > > and decoed out in a whopping seven minutes, and pulled up the body. > > That is amazing. You guys should start your own Technical training > agency. Maybe start by slamming all the others and it may make it easier > for you to get into the market. What do you say? > > > Now you all tell me: am I right or wrong? Is there a big problem of > > philosphy here and what is being taught, or am I an idiot? What do you > > people think about this , and these ARE the absolute facts of the case? > > Tell me what you think. > > Well Whitney, it is amazing that you know so much about this accident. > We have alot of accidents out here in So. Cal.(rarely technical) and > I'll tell you that recieving such information (all information) about > them such as you have with Janes accident is very timely unless you have > an inside. And if you do have a inside and speak to much about it to > fast, certain people (folks) speak meanly to you (the officials). I > don't know how much of this accident had to due with depth by listening > to the facts(as your dive teammates give them)and as previously stated, > Jane had thousands of dives before entering this trimix class as well as > her boyfriend being a long time instructor (expert in his field). Than > why was'nt Jane either prepared for the upcomming training or warned by > her boyfriend or friends that she was not ready for such and activity. > As a technical instructor myself, I know that every student reads and > signs a statement of understanding acknowledging that they are > participating in a hazardous activity, and they must assume the risks > before starting such a course. These risks include the possibility of > death along with other risks. Also it amazes me that an important part > of team WKPP are intructors under the same organization in which you > people(you all) are discrediting. > Last question(s), why are you as well as other team members so > concerned with this accident anyhow? Your team is obviously not > promoting technical education and hazes anyone other than WKPP members > for having fun by way of technical dives and has no obligation to > retrieve bodies. Accidents happen often in diving and I'm sure this > weekend will have its share. Many of these accidents could be avoided > but are'nt. Why is it you take so much interest in this one. Would it be > nothing more than an excellant opertunity to make future competition > look bad. > > Lets see if you can reply without the typical flamming attitude that > your teamates are so often doing. John Walker -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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