>>But as Ken alludes to, a high protein diet CAN be very dangerous, IF you
>>have insufficient water intake with it. But consider this the ultimate in
>>stupidity, since you know better---kind of like getting certified in deep
>>air by TDI, or taking a deep breath at 30 feet, holding it and
surfacing--in
>>either case, you deserve what you get.
>> Regards,
>>Dan Volker
>>
>
>easy to SAY...but Ken produced at least one study, as a start , to support
>the danger of high protein diets.
>
>how about a study that supports the nullifying effect of lots of water?
>or is this just a BELIEF?
>
>i'm told, by the poeple *I* trust, that too much protein is damaging to the
>kidneys and possibly the liver and more importantly to me, is ultimately
>immuno-suppressive.
>and this is based on science, not anecdotal evidence.
>
>you may be right...but is there peer reviewed, double blind study support
>for the belief?

To W. Wittman et al,
I passed your post on to Terry, and this was his response:

Dan - You need to point out that these case studies are not done on athletes
or people that exercise on a regular basis - there is absolutely no one on
the face of this earth that knows less about nutrition and nutritional
requirements than doctors. These studies are useless and have no valid
standing in athletic individuals - let these narrow minded people continue
living their fantasy world lives and let's stay with more productive
conversations - with rocks or some other life form that listens to reason
and doesn't already "know everything". These people must really live in a
bubble. And yes - you can quote me on this matter. After being involved in
medical based studies done on athletes - we have established PROOF -
athletes need more protein. If you have trouble with this concept - just
take a look at the insurance industry weight charts - how many people really
fit into these stupid little groups? These are useable tables???? I don't
think so - they were established in the 40's by an insurance salesman - but
God only knows - everybody and their brother have relied on them to a degree
in calculating "good health and correct weight to height ratios" - Bull Shit
I say - Hey Dan - where do I fit in on these stupid little charts - Let's
see I am 5 foot 10 inches tall - chart says I should weight between 175 -
185 ---hummmmm I weight a solid 303 at a bodyfat of under 10% - but I guess
I am unhealthy - would you people get a grip - Research can be found to
prove any point - any point.
Real life is what we are talking about - not clinical study - please get a
grip. And yes Dan - you can quote me.

See Ya,
Terry (the fat and out of shape guy you know to be physically unfit -
because the chart says so....)

----------
From:  Dan Volker [SMTP:dlv@ga*.ne*]
Sent:  Wednesday, April 08, 1998 10:11 PM
To:  Terry
Subject:  Fw: Diet and Training series for fitness in deep diving



-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Volker <dlv@ga*.ne*>
To: Ken Sallot <ken@co*.ci*.uf*.ed*>; Thomas A. Easop
<tomeasop@mi*.co*>; Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
Cc: jjcave@ib*.ne* <jjcave@ib*.ne*>; techdiver@aquanaut.com
<techdiver@aquanaut.com>; cavers@ww*.ge*.co* <cavers@ww*.ge*.co*>
Date: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: Diet and Training series for fitness in deep diving



>Ken, Tom,
>Easy guys. The "Way" to do high protein is to make sure you get 2 gallons
>per day of water, along with high protein. I'd bet in the studies done on
>kidney diseases, virtually NONE of individuals involved drank the 2 gallons
>of water per day.  In the high protein diets Terry creates for bodybuilders
>and competitive cyclists, there is NOTHING he stresses more than the need
to
>reach 2 gallons per day of water. I've watched dozens of Terry's clients
>start these diets, get great results with them over several months, and
I've
>never heard one person complain of kidney problems---in fact, recently one
>of my girlfriend Sandra clients ( she is a personal trainer at Terry's gym)
>just went on a Terry diet, and started this with frequent pains in his
>kidney area----these had preceeded the diet by about 2 months, and had
>already seen a doctor about the liklihood of kidney stones or some other
>problem----after 1 week of the new diet, with the 2 gallons of water per
>day, NO kidney pains. This was one happy guy. In one month so far, he has
>dropped two inches on his waist line, and his sport coats are now too
tight,
>due to increased mass in his arms and shoulders---which he wanted.
>Several of Terry's clients will whine slightly about the challenge of
>bringing water around with them all day, being nearer to bathrooms the
first
>2 weeks untill your system adjusts, etc., but they ALL have found the
>benefits far out weigh the inconveniance. If you are serious about weight
>loss and increased fitness, getting 2 gallons into you per day is a
>non-issue. For the person who is not serious----why are you even bothering
>to pretend you will change???.
>
>But as Ken alludes to, a high protein diet CAN be very dangerous, IF you
>have insufficient water intake with it. But consider this the ultimate in
>stupidity, since you know better---kind of like getting certified in deep
>air by TDI, or taking a deep breath at 30 feet, holding it and
surfacing--in
>either case, you deserve what you get.
> Regards,
>Dan Volker
>
>
>
>>Tom Mount wrote:
>>
>>> I would challenge Ken to produce evidence of kidney, liver or heart
>>> problems from a diet such as the zone or the protein power plan.
>>
>>Tom,
>>
>>I really wish you wouldn't have done that. Now my life is going to be
>>a little bit more difficult because I'm going to have to go and
>>re-research the material to produce for you. Would producing one
>>clinical study a day for the next month be helpful for you? Just tell
>>me when to stop.
>>
>>For today's installment I refer the reader to the "American Journal
>>of Clinical Nutrition", Volume 51, Issue #5, May 1990. On page 723 is
>>an article titled "Protein Requirements in Humans" by Peter L.
>>Pellett.
>>
>>I'm just going to paraphrase part of it here, but on page 733 under
>>the section "High Protein Intake" Dr. Pellett talks about how
>>excessive protein intakes is widely known to produce kidney disease,
>>and has been linked to osteoperosis, hypercalciuria, and calcium
>>stones in the urinary tract (kidney stones).
>>
>>I don't know about you, but I'd hate to suffer from any of these
>>(especially the stones).
>>
>>Then you write:
>>
>>> At
>>> the same time it is easy to document reduced BP, more level sugar
>>> levels etc and you feel damn good.
>>
>>Please document this. I would also like to see clinical studies done
>>that prove this, and please don't quote the literature from "The
>>Zone" or "Protein Power" or "Atkins New Diet Revolution". I challenge
>>Tom Mount to provide these studies. ;-)
>>
>>You then write:
>>
>>> Arnold is no doubt having problems due to the steroids as they are known
>to
>>> cause, liver, kidney and heart problems.
>>
>>Steroids are undoubtably a contributing cause, but would you be
>>surprised to find out how LITTLE protein Arnold now recommends people
>>to eat for body-building? I'll produce that quote for you (as well as
>>his other comments about a high protein diet) from his book later on
>>this month for you (unless you want me to stop ahead of time).
>>
>>> If you follow a zone type diet you should be ok as it is not a high fat
>diet
>>> with a lot of water weight loss other than in the first week nor does it
>>> eliminate carbs, and only then if you fail to supplement with potassium.
>I
>>> actually use a higher protein and lower carb intake. The zone basically
>is
>>> 40% carbs 30% protein and 30 %fat
>>
>>My understanding is the Zone is an offshoot of Atkins. Atkins
>>recommends keeping your carbs to less then 30g a day, but "eat as
>>much protein and fat as you can handle". This is not a healthy diet.
>>
>>The proper solution is a well balanced diet. Increasing protein
>>intake is not a bad thing (right now I'm trying to keep my protein
>>level around 50% myself), but going on super high protein
>>based ketogenic diets CAN and IS dangerous. You need to point this
>>out right now and let people know the risks behind too much protein.
>>
>>In all honesty, I was surprised to find the osteoperosis thing, but
>>my wife can probably provide me with more info. She worked for one of
>>the leading researchers in the field of osteoperosis in the United
>>States until he retired last year (she does bone density scanning).
>>
>>> You do lose inches in places like the waist if you do hi protein, and
you
>>> are pretty safe as long as you stay under 60% protein .
>>
>>Tom, please tell me what happens when you go over 60%? Please please
>>please???
>>
>>> The protein power plan advocates 60% proteins and good quality fats,
>about
>>> 25% veggies and fruits and 15 % other carbs. I know that diet cause
>inches
>>> lost from the waist ,butt etc. and if you workout allows for no loss or
>>> gains on your arms chest etc.
>>
>>60% proteins, 25% veggies, 15% carbs adds up to 100%. Where do the
>>fats come in?
>>
>>> You can do these diets, are as I do a variation of them either as a meat
>>> eater or a vegan.
>>
>>My point is protein based ketogenic diets are dangerous. They can
>>produce kidney disease, stones, and osteoperosis. I can provide
>>clinical studies which show this. Can you provide me with clinical
>>studies that show ketogenic diets are safe?
>>
>><stuff on exercise snipped>
>>
>>I agree with you on exercise. You are right when you say people need
>>to get off their lazy fat asses and do something (I believe you
>>mentioned roller blading is one activity). I also agree, the more you
>>do the more hooked you get.
>>
>>My point however is the best way to lose weight is to exercise and
>>eat a well balanced diet. You contend that it's carbohydrates that
>>cause too much weight gain, I contend it's bad eating habits and lack
>>of exercise.
>>
>>> Point in discussing my exercise routine was not to be a statement to see
>how
>>> dedicated Iam to training as it is not dedication it is an addiction and
>my
>>> type life style, but rather the point is that the type, not necessarily
>the
>>> quantity of the calories is the difference in a soud vs a diet that
>produces
>>> weight loss or gain. Do calories count maybe to a point but more
>important
>>> is the type of calories.
>>
>>I'll agree with you on this 100%. I don't disagree that too many
>>carbs can be bad. However, I contend that too much protein is bad
>>too. The proper solution is balance. "Too much of anything is a good
>>thing", didn't your mother ever tell you that? Maybe that's why you
>>"shrunk up" (that one's for Dr. Rose ;-).
>>
>>> The one study in France was interesting 3 groups same activity level
>(they
>>> did do a modest exercise program)
>>> total calories 1200 day (boy I would go nuts that is breakfast) 30 days
>>> group one all carbs  very small weight loss and some even gained weight
>>> group two all fat this group had the most dramatic weight loss but they
>also
>>> experienced  a loss in lean body (muscle) mass
>>> Group three all protein significant weight loss but each person had an
>>> increase in lean body(muscle) mass
>>
>>Please tell me more about this "study in france". Who conducted it?
>>Where are the results published?
>>
>>I've got a great health center library just a walk from my office and
>>I can use something to look up tomorrow at lunch.
>>
>>I'm not "bashing protein". I think it's a valuable nutrient, however
>>I WILL contend that protein based ketogenic diets are bad for you and
>>can cause serious bodily harm. Super high protein diets really will
>>mess you up, there is a wealth of information (contrary to what you
>>may think) on this subject matter. I strongly urge you to drive down
>>to the University of Miami (hey it's a safer neighborhood then
>>the one right there near Miami Shores, unless you go west of Red Road
>>right by Hardee, then you better be packing a weapon) and read the
>>article I referenced for you. I'll give you another one tomorrow.
>>
>>> You be the judge, it is your bodies and your health, I think I have
>>> discovered what works for me.
>>
>>It sounds like you've found a level of balance in your diet. That
>>WORKS. I don't disagree. But high protein diets like Atkins and the
>>Zone will cause serious damage to your kidneys in the long run (and
>>apparently is linked to osteoperosis).
>>
>>If people eat a balanced nutritious diet, and exercise regularly,
>>there wouldn't be the health problem we have. However, the change in
>>our lifestyle over the past 30 years has been to a "fast food
>>society", which also includes "fast food".
>>
>>I'd be curious to take a survey and find out how long it takes the
>>average reader to eat a 6" sub at subways. Do they actually take the
>>time to chew the food several times and taste it, or do they just
>>take a couple of quick gobbles and it's gone in under 5 or 6 minutes?
>>
>>> Safe health to you
>>> Tom
>>
>>You too Tom, oops almost time to go to the gym,
>>
>>Ken
>>
>
>--
>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>


>
>

--
Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.

Navigate by Author: [Previous] [Next] [Author Search Index]
Navigate by Subject: [Previous] [Next] [Subject Search Index]

[Send Reply] [Send Message with New Topic]

[Search Selection] [Mailing List Home] [Home]