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Dan, Yes, if you seek a high protein diet you MUST drink lots of water. As I stated previously, I'm shooting for around 50% of my caloric intake from protein right now myself, but I'm also drinking about 5L of water at work each day, and another gallon or so at home. Considering that water (well, less then 10gal a day) won't cause you harm, it doesn't hurt to drink it. But I don't want people to misinterpret what Tom is saying and assume that high protein diets are the answer. You can eat all the protein in the world, but if you don't hit the gym you're not going to get much of anywhere. Ken > From: "Dan Volker" <dlv@ga*.ne*> > To: "Ken Sallot" <ken@co*.ci*.uf*.ed*>, > "Thomas A. Easop" <tomeasop@mi*.co*>, > "Tom Mount" <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*> > Cc: <jjcave@ib*.ne*>, <techdiver@aquanaut.com>, <cavers@ww*.ge*.co*> > Subject: Re: Diet and Training series for fitness in deep diving > Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:16:03 -0400 > Ken, Tom, > Easy guys. The "Way" to do high protein is to make sure you get 2 gallons > per day of water, along with high protein. I'd bet in the studies done on > kidney diseases, virtually NONE of individuals involved drank the 2 gallons > of water per day. In the high protein diets Terry creates for bodybuilders > and competitive cyclists, there is NOTHING he stresses more than the need to > reach 2 gallons per day of water. I've watched dozens of Terry's clients > start these diets, get great results with them over several months, and I've > never heard one person complain of kidney problems---in fact, recently one > of my girlfriend Sandra clients ( she is a personal trainer at Terry's gym) > just went on a Terry diet, and started this with frequent pains in his > kidney area----these had preceeded the diet by about 2 months, and had > already seen a doctor about the liklihood of kidney stones or some other > problem----after 1 week of the new diet, with the 2 gallons of water per > day, NO kidney pains. This was one happy guy. In one month so far, he has > dropped two inches on his waist line, and his sport coats are now too tight, > due to increased mass in his arms and shoulders---which he wanted. > Several of Terry's clients will whine slightly about the challenge of > bringing water around with them all day, being nearer to bathrooms the first > 2 weeks untill your system adjusts, etc., but they ALL have found the > benefits far out weigh the inconveniance. If you are serious about weight > loss and increased fitness, getting 2 gallons into you per day is a > non-issue. For the person who is not serious----why are you even bothering > to pretend you will change???. > > But as Ken alludes to, a high protein diet CAN be very dangerous, IF you > have insufficient water intake with it. But consider this the ultimate in > stupidity, since you know better---kind of like getting certified in deep > air by TDI, or taking a deep breath at 30 feet, holding it and surfacing--in > either case, you deserve what you get. > Regards, > Dan Volker > > > > >Tom Mount wrote: > > > >> I would challenge Ken to produce evidence of kidney, liver or heart > >> problems from a diet such as the zone or the protein power plan. > > > >Tom, > > > >I really wish you wouldn't have done that. Now my life is going to be > >a little bit more difficult because I'm going to have to go and > >re-research the material to produce for you. Would producing one > >clinical study a day for the next month be helpful for you? Just tell > >me when to stop. > > > >For today's installment I refer the reader to the "American Journal > >of Clinical Nutrition", Volume 51, Issue #5, May 1990. On page 723 is > >an article titled "Protein Requirements in Humans" by Peter L. > >Pellett. > > > >I'm just going to paraphrase part of it here, but on page 733 under > >the section "High Protein Intake" Dr. Pellett talks about how > >excessive protein intakes is widely known to produce kidney disease, > >and has been linked to osteoperosis, hypercalciuria, and calcium > >stones in the urinary tract (kidney stones). > > > >I don't know about you, but I'd hate to suffer from any of these > >(especially the stones). > > > >Then you write: > > > >> At > >> the same time it is easy to document reduced BP, more level sugar > >> levels etc and you feel damn good. > > > >Please document this. I would also like to see clinical studies done > >that prove this, and please don't quote the literature from "The > >Zone" or "Protein Power" or "Atkins New Diet Revolution". I challenge > >Tom Mount to provide these studies. ;-) > > > >You then write: > > > >> Arnold is no doubt having problems due to the steroids as they are known > to > >> cause, liver, kidney and heart problems. > > > >Steroids are undoubtably a contributing cause, but would you be > >surprised to find out how LITTLE protein Arnold now recommends people > >to eat for body-building? I'll produce that quote for you (as well as > >his other comments about a high protein diet) from his book later on > >this month for you (unless you want me to stop ahead of time). > > > >> If you follow a zone type diet you should be ok as it is not a high fat > diet > >> with a lot of water weight loss other than in the first week nor does it > >> eliminate carbs, and only then if you fail to supplement with potassium. > I > >> actually use a higher protein and lower carb intake. The zone basically > is > >> 40% carbs 30% protein and 30 %fat > > > >My understanding is the Zone is an offshoot of Atkins. Atkins > >recommends keeping your carbs to less then 30g a day, but "eat as > >much protein and fat as you can handle". This is not a healthy diet. > > > >The proper solution is a well balanced diet. Increasing protein > >intake is not a bad thing (right now I'm trying to keep my protein > >level around 50% myself), but going on super high protein > >based ketogenic diets CAN and IS dangerous. You need to point this > >out right now and let people know the risks behind too much protein. > > > >In all honesty, I was surprised to find the osteoperosis thing, but > >my wife can probably provide me with more info. She worked for one of > >the leading researchers in the field of osteoperosis in the United > >States until he retired last year (she does bone density scanning). > > > >> You do lose inches in places like the waist if you do hi protein, and you > >> are pretty safe as long as you stay under 60% protein . > > > >Tom, please tell me what happens when you go over 60%? Please please > >please??? > > > >> The protein power plan advocates 60% proteins and good quality fats, > about > >> 25% veggies and fruits and 15 % other carbs. I know that diet cause > inches > >> lost from the waist ,butt etc. and if you workout allows for no loss or > >> gains on your arms chest etc. > > > >60% proteins, 25% veggies, 15% carbs adds up to 100%. Where do the > >fats come in? > > > >> You can do these diets, are as I do a variation of them either as a meat > >> eater or a vegan. > > > >My point is protein based ketogenic diets are dangerous. They can > >produce kidney disease, stones, and osteoperosis. I can provide > >clinical studies which show this. Can you provide me with clinical > >studies that show ketogenic diets are safe? > > > ><stuff on exercise snipped> > > > >I agree with you on exercise. You are right when you say people need > >to get off their lazy fat asses and do something (I believe you > >mentioned roller blading is one activity). I also agree, the more you > >do the more hooked you get. > > > >My point however is the best way to lose weight is to exercise and > >eat a well balanced diet. You contend that it's carbohydrates that > >cause too much weight gain, I contend it's bad eating habits and lack > >of exercise. > > > >> Point in discussing my exercise routine was not to be a statement to see > how > >> dedicated Iam to training as it is not dedication it is an addiction and > my > >> type life style, but rather the point is that the type, not necessarily > the > >> quantity of the calories is the difference in a soud vs a diet that > produces > >> weight loss or gain. Do calories count maybe to a point but more > important > >> is the type of calories. > > > >I'll agree with you on this 100%. I don't disagree that too many > >carbs can be bad. However, I contend that too much protein is bad > >too. The proper solution is balance. "Too much of anything is a good > >thing", didn't your mother ever tell you that? Maybe that's why you > >"shrunk up" (that one's for Dr. Rose ;-). > > > >> The one study in France was interesting 3 groups same activity level > (they > >> did do a modest exercise program) > >> total calories 1200 day (boy I would go nuts that is breakfast) 30 days > >> group one all carbs very small weight loss and some even gained weight > >> group two all fat this group had the most dramatic weight loss but they > also > >> experienced a loss in lean body (muscle) mass > >> Group three all protein significant weight loss but each person had an > >> increase in lean body(muscle) mass > > > >Please tell me more about this "study in france". Who conducted it? > >Where are the results published? > > > >I've got a great health center library just a walk from my office and > >I can use something to look up tomorrow at lunch. > > > >I'm not "bashing protein". I think it's a valuable nutrient, however > >I WILL contend that protein based ketogenic diets are bad for you and > >can cause serious bodily harm. Super high protein diets really will > >mess you up, there is a wealth of information (contrary to what you > >may think) on this subject matter. I strongly urge you to drive down > >to the University of Miami (hey it's a safer neighborhood then > >the one right there near Miami Shores, unless you go west of Red Road > >right by Hardee, then you better be packing a weapon) and read the > >article I referenced for you. I'll give you another one tomorrow. > > > >> You be the judge, it is your bodies and your health, I think I have > >> discovered what works for me. > > > >It sounds like you've found a level of balance in your diet. That > >WORKS. I don't disagree. But high protein diets like Atkins and the > >Zone will cause serious damage to your kidneys in the long run (and > >apparently is linked to osteoperosis). > > > >If people eat a balanced nutritious diet, and exercise regularly, > >there wouldn't be the health problem we have. However, the change in > >our lifestyle over the past 30 years has been to a "fast food > >society", which also includes "fast food". > > > >I'd be curious to take a survey and find out how long it takes the > >average reader to eat a 6" sub at subways. Do they actually take the > >time to chew the food several times and taste it, or do they just > >take a couple of quick gobbles and it's gone in under 5 or 6 minutes? > > > >> Safe health to you > >> Tom > > > >You too Tom, oops almost time to go to the gym, > > > >Ken > > > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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