Dan
As I stated in an earlier post, I have tried several types of diet (normal
not dieting) Years ago when I was doing marathons someone convinced me to
become a vegan and I tried it for about  nine months, in my case I lost
muscle size decreased my speed and endurance. amazing when I went back onto
a diet with meat, chicken and fish in it I recovered almost instantly back
to normal.

Since then I have tried eating on several  different so called "best
nutrition" diets high complex carbs, balanced with max attention to lowered
fat and low to moderate protein etc. and always find myself returning to a
diet similar to the one that I followed back in the sixties when I was into
power lifting and bodybuilding, as This diet seemed to give the best
definition for me and the most endurance at that time. It is basically a
high protein, moderate fat moderate carbs (more fat than carbs) and I do
about 40 to 60% protein. About the time we went into this discussion I
decided to increase my protein to 50 to 65% per day and drop carbs to 20% or
less ( before this I had been taking in a lot of protein 40 to 50% but also
a lot of carbs, in fact I was using twin labs opti fuel which per serving
has 20 gm protein and 100 gr of carbs and mixing it with fruit thus even
more carbs). Guess what during these few weeks  I have cut off time on my
combined run cyle workout, lost one and one half inches on my waist (and I
was not even trying to do that) and increased my daily calorie intake.
So from my experience I would agree that my body functions better on high
protein and eating meat , fish and chicken than it did on a complex carb
diet and much better than it did when I tried the veggie route.

But Dan us (you, I and Terry) karate guys need the blood in the redmeat to
keep us going, so guess that is why we survive better on meat, the rarer the
better. um the taste of raw blood!!! ha ha

I do have good friends that are top endurance athletes who are veggies but
they supplement their diets to even more extremes than I do


I still need an answer to the creatin question on dose and cycle. I have
quit using it prior to my runs as of this week, thanks for the tip on that.

Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Volker <dlv@ga*.ne*>
To: Tech Diver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; 'cavers' <cavers@ww*.ge*.co*>
Date: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 3:40 PM
Subject: Fw: Diet and Training series for fitness in deep diving, Partone;
Hydration


>
>
>
>>Dan
>>
>>Unless you've just been faked, you wrote:
>>
>>> I am talking about eating to become an elite level athlete---which is
>what
>>> a tech diver should strive to be--- and a meat eating  diet  is
necessary
>>> for the recovery demands of intense physical training.
>><snip>
>>
>>> I bet there is an amazingly high correlation between becoming a vegan
and
>>> becoming gay---are you light on your feet ???
>><snip>
>>
>
>>BUT, the last time I checked a third of the WKPP lead team _was_ vegan,
>>and the last time that person was slandered on the cavers list the
>>poster was removed from the list.
>>
>>I appreciate the diet and fitness information but how about sticking to
>>facts?
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>David Middleton
>
>David, the guy was insulting me, and Terry, and I don't need that---so I
>responded in kind.
>The reality is, you can be a tech diver and be a vegan. You can even be
>among the best tech or cave divers, and be a vegan.
>But your fitness level will be as good as it is, "despite"  the fact you
>are a vegan, not "because" of it.  There is an enormous body of evidence to
>prove that for elite level strength and endurance training, animal based
>protein sources are far superior to plant proteins. Effective weight loss
>typically involves "building" more lean bodymass---more muscle, because it
>will have very high caloric demands, and this will promote weight loss. And
>since each muscular workout involves having to replenish glycogen stores in
>all the muscles worked,
>you will use far more of the carbohydrate you consume, but in the process
of
>doing this, you tear muscle tissue, which needs quality protein to
heal---to
>recover. This means a higher quality protein source will ultimately help
you
>to burn more calories, because your percentage of bodyweight derived from
>muscle will be higher---because you have generated more muscle tissue
>through better anabolic metabolism, possible with a better  diet  ( and
>large bodyweight percentages of fat, require
>very tiny energy to sustain themselves).
>If the guy I was responding to, had just asked me with social courtesy,
>instead  of insults, I would have been happy to explain thouroughly.  No
one
>pays me to take the time to help people on this list with nutrition and
>training help. I just do it because I think its something I ought to do.
>.... If someone wants to insult me, FUCK them, I'm not turning any cheeks.
>They would not do it in person, but they think they can pull shit like this
>from the safety of a keyboard.  This just pisses me off.  Anything I have
>said so far can be ABSOLUTELY BACKED UP, not just by Terry's training
>results of hundreds of world class athletes,  but also with the journal
>articles that led to his knowledge base in the first place.
>For instance, one thing this butt head vegan that attacked me with his
>keyboard, does NOT know, in his foolish
>attempt to mix  plant types to get complete protein, is that NO  plant
>protein source has enough L-methionine  to qualify as a "source" for this
>amino acid, essential to muscle repair. They "think" they are getting the
>methionine they need, from nutrition lableing on their plant protein
>sources, but the methionine they get is not L-methionine, its a different
>molecular form, not the essential one--this is like reading you need
vitamin
>E, and going to a GNC store, where you buy a generic brand. Guess
what...all
>vitamin E is NOT equal. Several forms are completely worthless to you, yet
>products that contain them  they still pass the
>RDA for vitamin E.  As you probably know, at the very least, you need a
>vitamin E complex, with the three main tocopherols mixed together, or your
>body can't use it. Myopia among vegans in protein sourcing is far more
>pathalogical than the vitamin E example.
>Feel free to pass this post on to the list or anywhere. Tell the "militant
>vegans" I won't attack them personally, unless they attack me.
>
>I will not fault being a vegan for health or moral reasons, but I will
argue
>it is
>"INFERIOR" to a animal protein based diet for recovery from elite level
>physical
>training.
>And as most athletes already know, its MUCH easier to stay in shape, by
diet
>and exercise, than the training and diet needed to get "into shape", when
>you are badly out of it.  The recovery demands of intense training, to
bring
>a 30 % bodyfat person down to 15% will be high, assuming they take the
>optimal route to get there. If they do not take the optimal route---they
may
>NEVER get there, or it may take a very LONG time. I'm trying to offer
>fastest or best ways to get into better fitness. The militant vegan who
>tried to slam me, is offering a "compromise" diet. I'm healthy, I think I
>have a RIGHT as an apex predator, to eat meat, and since this is THE most
>optimal diet for good response to high level physical training, for a
human,
>I'm eating meat. If someone is "sick" , has allergic problems with animal
>proteins, a strange gastro-intestinal condition, maybe a heart condition,
>etc., or has a problem with their heritage as a human, and wants to
>de-evolve by a  misplaced belief in Lamarkian genetics, let them be a
vegan.
>But when vegans start preaching about their diets representing the optimal
>needs of an elite athlete, you know they are just trying to justify
>something they happen to "wish" to be true.
>Dan Volker
>
>

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