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Dan, If nothing else how about answering the 2 *** questions at the bottom? > Probably, there will always be a training agency that represents your view, > and you will have what you want----lets just hope for your sake, this won't > have to be TDI. A new improved IANTD, or other much more rigorously > involved tech training school, with its own agency, will be the way of > smarter, better, safer diver, in my book. The "safety" ultimately comes from the diver, not the school. IMO Just as the agency doesn't make the instructor, the instructor does not make the student. The agency provide the tools and the miniumum guidelines for what a course for a topic must cover, it is up to the instructor to teach it well. Likewise the instructor provides the information to the student, and it is up to the student to use that information well once they leave the classroom. Classroom performace is just like mutual fund performace, ie, past performance makes no guarantees about future performance. So in the end the responsibility lies on the diver. Not the instructor, and not the agency. The responsible diver seeks out the best training. The responsible diver evaluates their fitness level and how that affects the risk of their dive profile. The irresponsible diver does not. It seems you want to present the irresponsible diver with nothing but the best training, thinking that will somehow force the irresponsible diver to change their nature. Or they will not receive the certifcation. Am I following your reasoning? I do not think that system works. You cannot create a system that is guaranteed to not let some irresponsible diver slip thru. And the now uncertified divers will still find a way to hurt themselves; you cannot prevent that, as much as you would like to. You cannot protect a fool from themself, you only spend a lot of time and effort and make a mess in the process. Face it, fools are far too clever. They will think of things you NEVER thought to protect them from. And in the process you open yourself to liability since you presented the appearance of trying to assume responsibility for the actions of someone else. > And there "will be" a training agency, with much more stringent > guidelines, for skills, fitness and medical screening, and they will have > DRASTICALLY LOWER incidents of accidients in the ocean---this will mean they > will ultimately have better insurance coverage for less money, and that many Funny, I would have thought lower insurance coverage would have come from striking a more defensible contract with the customer. Which standard is easier to defend? That you taught a diver what they paid you for, or that you promised that diver would be forever "safe" ? > boats may begin to recognize their safety potential, while they may refuse > to take out tech divers from the "We Certify Anyone" agency. Just for grins why shouldn't a boat take anyone out? Obvious answer: concern about injury. Followup question: Why concern? Concern about human life, or concern about liability. Brutally honest answer: as much as the other, concern about liability. In the scenario I described, the liability issue goes away. The customer knew the target dive environment , paid for transport, and the boat provided said service and ONLY said service. No breach of contract, no liability. In your scenario I gotta walk 10 miles uphill, both ways, in snow with Force fins, and Double Genny 120's, with PST 120 stages on each side, with 5 long hoses bungied behind me, fire dive from a chopper all to get a c-card, so the boat will LET me pay them for a service for which they promise to keep me safe, so that when I die my relatives will sue them for taking me on a dive which they will assert I was not ready for, and that the boat should have read my mind and known that. I just can't fathom why people want to promise so much more than they can realisitically deliver. I know it comes from concern for others, but you can go a LONG way toward that by asking for logs, warning divers of the danger, being sure they know the risks, without at the end of the day promising more than simply providing a transport service. you take this attitude and most of the rediculous liability crap surrounding diving, which hurts ALL of us, the crap goes away. Without bogging down in gory detail, we as divers have many fewer pieces of equipment to choose from, many fewer tools to help our diving, at increased prices, because nobody wants to make the end user responsible for the use of the provided gear, tool, or instruction. > The more stringent requirements of the agency(s) I'm going to send people > to, will also carry much more weight with their families, than the one you > suggest. Your agency promised me my loved one would be safe. My agency just promised to teach them what they wanted to know. I may "feel" better about your agency, but I am also more likely to sue and WIN against your agency. And BOTH agencies have every opportunity to present a good and thorough course designed to meet the needs of the student. > But its a free enterprise world, so what you want has already come > true, in the form of TDI, anyway. Dan, you haven't shown the slightest understanding yet of what I want in an agency. Instead you are trying to conveniently pigeon hole this issue away onto your list of "bad things". Its a long and incorrect stretch to insist that believing in personal responsibility equates to desiring bad training. But we get lost in debate and lose the focus of the discussion. ****** Simple question Dan, are you responsible for yourself? If you aren't please let me know who is, you've been a naughty boy on the computer lately :-) ****** If you are, it follows that you make your risk decisions for yourself. Why can't you let others do the same? Mike -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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