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Mr. Steele: Your dogged determination to unearth the facts in these deaths is truly a testament to your desire to get to the truth. I would postulate, however, that your desired ends would be better served by doing your own research, and then reporting back to [the list] us. I realize the importance of one supporting their public accusations with substantive facts, but in this case, you are a) not on a truly public forum, 2) attacking a widely held belief amongst some members of this list(I am certain those who agree will be more than happy to corroborate that for me). You, are, in essence, putting at least certain members to task on their beliefs/knowledge about certain widely-known occurrences. Were this a courtroom, the burden of proof would lie on your shoulders. Were you an agent or officer of one of the parties offended by the assertions made on this forum, then perhaps you'd have a cause of action regarding your reputation. If you are going to continue to contend these issues, please offer some substantiation for your doubts, with cited sources, for our perusal. Until such time as you are willing to do so, please refrain from wasting our time further. Your demands are becoming tedious. __________________ William R. Robinson phreatic@ju*.co* __________________ On Mon, 09 Feb 1998 10:46:11 CST "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*> writes: >Oh my Gosh. The word is out. First, please don't hurt me. Your >posting leads me to believe that you are aggrevated with me. I'm >sorry. >Please, be nice, I'm only a neophyte. Now, lets continue. First, >Your >posting of 5 out of 8 deaths is impressive, except for one thing. You > >do not support these statistics with the agency that compiled them. >You >see, it is hard for me just to "take your word for it" when your >postings are of this nature. You see, ad hominem attacks do not >impress >me. Your posting is nothing more than this. Please, give me the >source >of this information. I know that you have it. Is it DAN, or another >organization? You see, The Cobber man told me one time that this >information does not exist or it is next to impossible to get. Check >the archives. You obviously have this information. Share your source > >with me and the rest of the list. > >>From bobmajor@ju*.co* Mon Feb 9 08:29:42 1998 >>Received: (from bobmajor@ju*.co*) >> by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LLO06090; Mon, 09 Feb 1998 >11:20:12 EST >>To: rogersteele@ho*.co* >>Cc: cavers@ww*.ge*.co*, techdiver@aquanaut.com >>Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:17:14 -0500 >>Subject: Roger Steele: Awaiting Your Answer >>Message-ID: <19980209.111714.18854.0.bobmajor@ju*.co*> >>X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 >>X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,14-15,17-18,23-24,29-30,33-34,36-173 >>From: bobmajor@ju*.co* (Robert W Major) >> >>Roger Steele, >> >>You are exactly as Mr. Clark says. You are a liar and an unrepentant >>"shill" for the TDI organization, your denials notwithstanding. >Your >>first contributions to this list were either verbatim or excerpted >from >>information passed on to you through one of TDI's assigns. >> >>You barged onto this forum demanding that "We" the list members go >out >>and perform "statistical research" for you to prove something >everyone >on >>this list knows to be true. You then had the unmitigated gall to >threaten >>us with tortious actions should the inevitable and obvious response >not >>be to your liking. This, in and of itself was very suspicious, >>particularly coming from a "socalled" introductory cave diver. There > >are >>few things more aggravating and insulting then being requested to >prove >>the obvious. Let me state it for you again in simple English: >> >>5 out of 8 Technical Diving deaths during 1997 were TDI. PLEASE >EXPLAIN >>TO ALL OF US ON THIS LIST WHAT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS IS. >> >>You have quite obviously avoided addressing this issue and this >blatant >>omission raises the suspicions of everyone that you are nothing more >than >>a "shill" for the TDI organization. You think that these people are >your >>friends? They will discard you like wastepaper in a heartbeat, if it >>suits them. >> >>We all have a long memory and will not forget your insults and your >>obvious alliance with the single worst influence in diving today. You > >had >>best to continue to enjoy playing elevator with your lift bag in a >>refrigerated cesspool because you can forget about diving anything >other >>than the usual stroke pits. The word is out on you Roger. >> >>Yes Roger, you really have "raised the level of discourse" on this >forum. >> You have once again called attention to (5 out of 8) one of the >greatest >>tragedies in technical diving. >> >>There may still be some hope for you yet, if you were to come clean >and >>tell us the truth about what your real agenda is or was. >> >>Still waiting for the other shoe to drop�. >> >>Bob Major >> >> >> >>BELOW ARE EXCERPTS FROM ROGER STEELE'S POSTS >>COMPILED BY JOHN CLARK FROM THE ARCHIVES OF TECHDIVER AND CAVERS >> >> >>From: "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*> >>Subject: Fwd: Re: DeepTech >>Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:45:34 CST >> >>I did not receive a reply from anyone on the list concerning the >>questions below. I am sure, since many people on this list seem to >be >>convinced of the unsafe teaching practices of TDI, that there must be > >>strong statistical proof to support these conclusions. Please >respond >>at your leisure. >> >>------------- >> >>On the other hand, if it cannot be proven, then all >>of these claims are unsubstantiated by facts and therefore should be >>considered mere opinion and heresay. I would like responses that are > >>concerned with providing actual statistics. >> >>----------- >> >> My question stands: Is there >>a statistical correlation between scuba diving deaths and TDI >>certification? If so, please respond with factual information from a > >>reputable agency that compiles such figures. >> >>------ >> >>TDI certified? Of the ones that are certified, (if there are any) >how >>many of these deaths can you directly attribute to TDI's unsafe >diving >>instuction? Please respond with factual statistics. >> >>------ >>My question concerns several comments on >>this list about TDI unsafe diving instruction in general. This is a >>very serious claim that some people are making. It is my intention >to >>discover the facts that back up these claims. To my knowledge, no >one >>has been able to do that as of yet, which leads me to believe that >these >>comments are unsubstantiated by relevant facts and therefore should >be >>ignored until these facts can be presented in a coherent manner. As >I >> >>------ >> >>Can you prove that TDI is practicing >>unsafe diving instruction in its classes. I have asked you to >provide >>me with factual information that would show us all that TDI is >directly >>responsible for any deaths related to scuba diving, not just deep >air. >>You have failed to provide this information. I can only assume from >>this that you do not have such information. From this one can only >>conclude that your comments are based on heresay and opinion, and >should >>be ignored until relevant information is provided. It seems strange >to >>me that I cannot find in any of your responses a mention of DAN, a >> >>------- >> >>I suggest that you >>contact DAN, as a starting point, in gathering statistical >information >>by which you can correlate scuba diving deaths with TDI >certification. >> >>------- >> >>Therefore, you must take it upon yourself to prove your >>claims. I come to you seeking knowledge on this subject. It >> >>------ >> >> >>If you are going to claim criminal negligence, you are going to have >to >>provide facts to support this. This is a very dangerous statement to > >>make without facts to back it up. It amazes me that people are >>perfectly willing to make such claims in the public forum without the > >>request facts, especially when it concerns actions that are >supposedly >>resulting in the deaths of human beings. Liable is not a funny issue. >I >>just hope that people on the list do not find this out the hard way, >>right or wrong. >> >>-------- >>One of my intentions in joining this list is >>to raise the discourse to a level that is worthy of the sport that we > >>all love. Diving, whether in its technical format or sport format, >is >> >>----- >> >> >> >>If these statistics are non-existent or impossible to get to, what >are >>you basing your claims upon? I do not know whether these statistics >>exist or not. That is why I am asking you. In fact, if you have >known >>this all along, why are you just now making this claim? Have you >>inquired to DAN for these statistics? I doubt it. You have a very >>difficult problem to surmount now. By this statement you have >> >>----- >> >>oint taken. The information that I am requesting is probably >difficult >>to get. Analysis of the information will be even more difficult. >>---- >> >>For myself, I really do not see the difference >>between what Gilliam printed in his magazine and what George has >posted >>on this list, other than the fact that Gilliam did not print >profanity. >> >>----- >> >>Maybe he would fair better if he would >>stop sending posts about internet tactics and start focusing on >diving >>information and techniques. >> >>----- >> >>Based on our last conversation I >>don't think you really want to engage me in rational argumentation. >O >> >>---- >> >>) It is an excellent place to pratice lift bag ascents, due to >>the milky nature of the visibility and the depth. For instance, >doing >a >>lift bag ascent in the ocean with high visibility is easy after >>accomplishing this several times in cold, milky water. I normall >> >>---- >> >>HUH???? Do you think I'm Brett Gilliam the TDI demon, or Roger the > >>cave student of Joe Odom living in Huntsville AL. Maybe I'm Fred >>Flintstone, or better yet, George Irvine incognito. >> >> >> >> >>_____________________________________________________________________ >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >> >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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