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It's "libel," it is classified as both a tort and a crime, but is no longer prosecuted as a crime(Black's, 378). I think that the legal trend to this point seems to be that statements on forums such as this one are generally treated as opinion in the eyes of the law, but I could be mistaken. You wouldn't happen to know of any cases, would you? I think the point being made here is that deep air: (1) provides a physiological condition such that judgement is severely impaired, therefore making the risk of death significantly greater, given the gear and technique required in such an environment (2) is still being taught by certain parties (3) therefore, certain parties may be indirectly contributing to the deaths of others by condoning and even encouraging aforementioned behavior. To attempt to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a certain training agency is directly liable for a death is tenuous, perhaps, but to teach deep air diving in the face of the connection between deep-air diving and death would appear to be extraordinarily questionable behavior from a liability analysis standpoint. You are personally incapable of proving to me that the Earth is round, yet, I feel certain that you would find me ridiculous if I asserted otherwise. Deep air kills; statistical evidence implicating certain parties may be impossible to obtain; but we don't NEED that information to know that it is a stupid practice, and we don't need that information to know who still teaches it. I don't have enough information to accuse anyone, as I have had very little to do with any of the "tech" agencies, my experience is limited to the cave and openwater agencies. __________________ William R. Robinson phreatic@ju*.co* __________________ On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:26:52 CST "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*> writes: >If you are going to claim criminal negligence, you are going to have >to >provide facts to support this. This is a very dangerous statement to >make without facts to back it up. It amazes me that people are >perfectly willing to make such claims in the public forum without the >request facts, especially when it concerns actions that are supposedly > >resulting in the deaths of human beings. Liable is not a funny issue. >I >just hope that people on the list do not find this out the hard way, >right or wrong. > >>From dcrco@jp*.ne* Thu Jan 22 12:09:26 1998 >>Received: from dcrco (istk-port124.jps.net [208.25.61.131]) >> by dry.jps.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA21313; >> Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:08:35 -0800 (PST) >>Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:08:35 -0800 (PST) >>Message-Id: <199801222008.MAA21313@dr*.jp*.ne*> >>X-Sender: dcrco@20*.25*.63*.25* >>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>To: "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*>, cobber@ci*.co*, >> techdiver@aquanaut.com >>From: Jeremy Downs <dcrco@jp*.ne*> >>Subject: Re: Deeptech >> >>Sheck used air for travel to extreme depths before switching to a >narcotic >>trimix (High PPN2) this actually was deep air diving. The high PPO2 >is >the >>danger, it doesn't matter if you have helium in your mix if there's >not >>enough to counteract all dangers, TDI pushes high ENDs - deep air >under >a >>different costume. >> >>It's clear these guys like the buzz, why else would they be running >deep air >>dives over abysmal depths or sand bottoms where there is nothing to >see >or >>do but get stoned. It's bad enough to set such an example, teaching >this BS >>to unsuspecting customers is criminal. >> >> >>At 08:01 AM 1/22/98 CST, roger steele wrote: >>>Forgive me for not understanding your post. Your lucid >argumentation >is >>>sometimes overwhelming. However, my question remains unanswered by >you. >>>TDI was founded in 1994. The dead list is irrelevant to TDI's >>>responsibility towards those deaths. 95% of the ones you have >mentioned >>>happened well before 1994. (Several of the names that are last on >the >>>list do not have dates listed. Also, one of the names on the list, >>>Sheck Exley, did not die on deep air, he died using mixed gas, as a >am >>>sure most of the people on this e-mail list are well aware. >Therefore, >>>you should strike his name off the list. This raises another issue >>>concerning the reliability of your list. Please provide me with the >>>details of these deaths ie. . . What were the circumstances of each > >>>accident, were all of them in fact diving air?) You would be hard >>>pressed to convince anyone that TDI's unsafe dive instruction is >>>responsible for deaths happening in the 1960's. If you think this >is >>>indeed the case, please present your logical arguments so that I >also >>>can be convinced. Remember, my question is show me the statistical >>>correlation between scuba diving deaths and TDI certification. In >your >>>comments I see nothing that is relevant to this question. Let me be >as >>>clear as possible, in the list that you have provided me, how many >are >>>TDI certified? Of the ones that are certified, (if there are any) >how >>>many of these deaths can you directly attribute to TDI's unsafe >diving >>>instuction? Please respond with factual statistics. >>> >>>>From cobber@ma*.ci*.co* Wed Jan 21 18:20:32 1998 >>>>Received: from 206.246.204.142 by cisatlantic.com >>>> with SMTP (QuickMail Pro Server for MacOS 1.0.2); 21 JAN 98 >>>21:20:17 UT >>>>Subject: Re: Deeptech >>>>Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 21:20:45 -0500 >>>>x-sender: cobber@ma*.ci*.co* >>>>x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 >>>>From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> >>>>To: "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*>, >>>> "Tech Diver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>>>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >>>> >>>>On 1/21/98 4:28 PM roger steele wrote: >>>> >>>>>I have checked the "Dead list" from the aquanaut archive to the >best >>>of >>>>>my ability. >>>> >>>>You did not understand my post did you, or you don't care to >>>understand. >>>>Let me try again: >>>> >>>>Deepair deaths: >>>> >>>>We have two corrections to the deep air death list: depth on the >Sea >>>>Mount air killing, and depth on Doug missavage: >>>> >>>>Heywood Day, 140', 1962 >>>>Ron Hughes, 150', 1963 >>>>Paul Giancontere, 200', 1965 >>>>Brend Joost, 160', 1968 >>>>Stephen Alexander, 210', 1969 >>>>Pat McIntree, 150', 1969 >>>>Brett Naisbet, 150', 1969 >>>>Wayne Dillon, 210', 1969 >>>>Francis Wilson, 160', 1969 >>>>Paul Bartlett, 140', 1970 >>>>Robert Causey, 180', 1970 >>>>Bud Sims, 300', 1970 >>>>Fred Schmidt, 150', 1970 >>>>John Cruselle, 180', 1971 >>>>Frank Martz, 300', 1971 >>>>Robert Vaughn, 200', 1971 >>>>Doug Deurloo, 150', 1971 >>>>Ray Elman, 260', 1972 >>>>Alex Nesbitt, 200', 1972 >>>>Thomas Cranmer, 200', 1972 >>>>Paul Dietrich, 240', 1972 >>>>Dan Cole, 220', 1972 >>>>Rich Broman, 140', 1972 >>>>Stephen Millott, 250', 1973 >>>>Christine Millott, 250', 1973 >>>>John Bockerman, 250', 1973 >>>>Gordon Roberts, 250', 1973 >>>>William Smith, 200', 1973 >>>>Melvan Tillman, 150', 1973 >>>>James Waddington, 140', 1973 >>>>Robert Wyatt, 210', 1973 >>>>Deane Valentine, 190', 1973 >>>>George Van de Nord, 190', 1973 >>>>Paul Reinholm, 170', 1974 >>>>Unidentified, 200', 1974 >>>>Dana Turner, 290', 1974 >>>>Charles Barone, 180', 1975 >>>>Daniel Howard, 180', 1975 >>>>Steve Herman, 180', 1975 >>>>Mike Goddard, 170', 1976 >>>>Arthur Williamson, 140', 1976 >>>>Sven Sorenson, 140', 1976 >>>>William Wood, 180', 1978 >>>>Carl Miles, 180', 1978 >>>>Terry Collins, 260', 1981 >>>>James Bentz, 260', 1981 >>>>Bill McFadden, 200', 1988 >>>>William Cronin, 140', 1988 >>>>Kenny Potts, 200', 1990 >>>>Lloyd Morrison, 250', 1990 >>>>Billy Liiard, 180', 1991 >>>>Ormsby, John 230' 1985 >>>>Feldman, Steve 235' 1991 >>>>Soellner, Ed 145' 1992 >>>>Rouse, Jr, Chris 235' 1992 >>>>Rouse, Sr Chris 235' 1992 >>>>Santulli, Robert 220 1992 >>>>Sheck Exley 400 aed >>>>Nick Commoglio 450 >>>>Rob Palmer ? >>>>Rob Parker 250 >>>>Ed Suarez 280 >>>>Carl Sutton 280 >>>>Legare Hole 240 >>>>Andy Bader 220 >>>>Aron Arvidson 311*******correction >>>>Dennis Sirvet 110 meters >>>>DOUGLAS MISSAVAGE 191 ******correction >>>> >>>>Deep air is TDI policy. Do you need to take a logic class to make >the >>>>connection? >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> >------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Learn About Trimix At >http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>______________________________________________________ >>>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >>>-- >>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >>> >>> >> >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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