Good points, but I think we're going off on a bit of a tangent.  For commercial
or SAR work, we can 
use bandmasks, helmets, comms, hot water suits, surface supply and as many
people as we need 
topside.  This thread started (I think) adressing only recreational type ice
diving on SCUBA.  For 
this type of diving, FFM's are a bad idea as you stated because of their
tendency to freeflow.  I 
have to question your assessment of regulator failures in your post.  Nearly
all of the failures I 
have observed originate in the second stage, and I use SP MK 20's as firsts
with no problems.  
Dacor is crap, but one of the Sherwood models (maximus, I think) has a proven
track record with the 
US antarctic diving program.

-Sean


On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:32:23 -0500, Randy Sullivan wrote:

>The one thing that has to be realized is that this is ICE DIVING that we are
>talking about, not WARM cave diving.  These or two very different styles of
>diving.  There is no way the best cave diver on earth is going to do a
>11,000' push 300' down, under the ice.  It can't be on done scuba or RB's.
>Conversely a good ice diver isn't going to be able to do a cave dive pulling
>a rope. That said the gear you use for ice dive is different .  I don't mean
>to be anti Hogarth rigging but the use of the very best COLD water regs. is
>mandatory.
>
>The regs that I have seen fail the most are Decor(FFF & shut down),
>Sherwood(FFF) and scuba pro(FFF) ( in that order). These regs have in the
>past shown me that they are prone to Free Flow Failure.  The only types of
>regs that I have not seen fail are my 18 yr. old USD conshelf (it is bullet
>proof, used it for 8 yrs in all condition, no FFF) and the odin (only had
>mine 6 months but have seen a thousand hours of performance and no FFF).  As
>for full face, I prefer the Band mask over the Aga or the EXO because I have
>seen the latter two have FFF.  I also believe the scuba gear only gets one
>chance per day at the ice water.  For the second dive on the fullface
>surface supplied Band mask, use coffee for a thawing agent. I find if you
>have cream and sugar it works best for an anti fog.
>
>What is best for a cave environment is not best for ice diving.  You don't
>need a light that will burn for a day ;) , a reel with 1500' of line on it
>or a scooter that does  Mach 1.75.  At best you could say that ice diving is
>like cavern dives like Ginnie.  The one big exception is that it is not a
>closed off room, but I also didn't use a line to dive there.  You have to
>use 1/2" or 5/8" poly line with locking carabiners  using a harness under
>the BC, not cave line(cave line is for caves or deco bobbers).  The poly
>line serves two purposes. One, you what the line to float(so that it says
>out of your way if it gets some slack). And two, you what it to pull up
>anything that you or the line is snagged on.    The furthest logistically I
>think you should get from the hole is 300 or 400' Max (line length not
>depth).  Even those numbers are very high.
>
>The hole that you cut must have the ice chunks remove so that you can
>replace the hole when finished.  If you put the chunks under the ice, they
>may cause a snagging hazard.
>
>You have to have surface support the same way you need some one on the boat.
>I once had to o watch a dive buddy fight a US boater for his dive flag and
>float while on a dive. Can you imagine someone finding ice screws on the ice
>would do?
>
>I can't figure out why some body would use a buddy line.  That has to be the
>most dangerous practice, short of deep air, known to man.  The only person I
>want to be tied to is on the surface feeling my pull signals.  As for line
>management with two lines in the water, yes, you have to.  Ice diving has
>more tasks involved for your diving pleasure.
>
>The plain fact is that ice diving is not cave diving.  I would like to here
>from a cave diver who dives in caves with water temps. approaching freezing.
>I do well over 100 commercial, SAR and scuba dives a year, in all weather
>condition and with water temp. on average at 40* F.   It is much easier for
>me to go and dive warm water than it is for those warm water divers with
>your warm waters gear to dive cold water.
>
>
>Randy Sullivan
>Sault Ste. Marie, Ont
>sulteck@ic*.ne*
>
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