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Dear mr aquafart, A heating system if used to prolong the deco must of course bee redundant. DONT TRY TO TEACH ME ANYTHING ABOUT COLD WATER DIVING. All my diving is cold water diving so i know what i am doing. I am merely investigating the possibility of building a proper heating system and i don't need advice from experts like you who point out obvious things. It may bee the case that it is impractical to use electrical heating and if i find that out i will not use it. But i do think that it can bee worth looking in to atleast. Bill (aquadart) Bott wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Sorry to give this more life, it has seen enough play already. > However, as with so many things on the list, it refuses to die a > graceful death. There is some misinformation, disinformation and > misunderstanding that should be cleared up. If you are not > interested in what I am about to write, please find the key labeled > "delete" or "del", use it and go on with your life. > > First the misinformation / disinformation. As I have stated before I > do NOT now nor have I EVER been employed at a dive shop. I am NOT an > Instructor, Divemaster or "Dive Professional" of any sort. I chouse > to patronize dive shops and receive training from those professionals > that I feel have quality instruction and quality service. I do NOT > represent anyone other that myself. My opinions are MINE!!! And > although MAY be shared by others, I make no claim that any of my > opinions are shared by any other individual. Further, although some > people would like to control me, what I write and/or say, no one > does!!! If my opinion(s) bother any individual or group, PLEASE, > feel free to get over it!!! Or simply refer to the above > instructions on the use of the delete key > > Now for a matter, that more directly relates to diving. The past > thread on deep ice diving continues to go on. Despite my efforts to > let it die there seems to still be some interest in breathing more > life into it. A new thread has also developed regarding the use of > supplemental heat for drysuits. I would like to share with you WHY I > feel the those who propose this type of activity are DANGEROUS > STROKES and exemplify what is wrong in sport / tech diving today. > > Under the best conditions Deep dives into the 300' range are taxing. > Proper training, planing, conditioning and execution are all > essential elements for conducting such a dive. Throw in additional > complexities like overhead environments or cold bottom temps can > further tax divers physical, emotional and intellectual resources. > > When conducting dives in deep cold water many factors come into dive > planing. But thermal protection becomes a KEY element. The > additional insulation needed to keep warm causes loss of mobility. > The colder the water the more insulation, the less mobile the diver > becomes. At some point, the loss of mobility becomes more that the > diver can overcome and still operate safely. This is generally not a > great problem in the Great Lakes during the summer because the > surface temps rise rapidly through the spring and summer. The > relatively short bottom times of the typical tech dive does not cause > a major loss of core temperature in the diver. And relief from the > cold (38 degrees) is found in the warmer surface temps, supporting > the re-warming of a "chilled" diver. Argon use also helps to prevent > the chilling. > > During an ice dive to any depth, the water is DAMN COLD. Just below > the ice is a layer of water in liquid form that is 32-33 degrees. It > is ready to freeze if given any encouragement for the cold above. > Fortunately this layer of "cold" (all things are relative) is > typically only a few inches in depth. Below that, the water is a > balmy 36-38 degrees all the way to the bottom. During decompression, > the diver has to contend with not only the cold bottom temp and the > clod surface temps but also the fact that they are remaining > relatively inactive. Loss of core temperature, in the diver, is not > only likely but highly probable if the total dive time exceeds about > 30 - 60 minutes. > > To over come this some divers use some form of supplemental heat. > Chemical heat packs or Electric "britches" are two common forms of > supplemental heat. And although they can provide a great deal of > warmth and relief from the cold they must be looked at as another > possible / probable failure point. And here is where I have a big > problem with 300' + ice dives. > > In a properly configured rig, every "essential" piece of gear has a > backup. But for deep decompression ice dives supplement heat becomes > just such an essential piece of gear. During a shallow ice dive > several years ago I was using a chemical heat pack for a little added > comfort. And although I had used this method before successfully, I > could not get the heat pack to activate during the dive as I had > before. After surfacing I removed the heat pack and easily activated > it. Good thing it was just for added comfort that day. > > The electric "chaps" are another method. And in theory is a good > alternative. But like ALL electric devices, it is prone to fail. I > forget who it was that said, during a presentation I attended, > "Murphy LOVES to dive". The more I dive, the more I find this > statement is true. If you leave anything to chance, chances are it > won't work when you need it most! Further, in order to "insure" that > the system will function properly when needed, redundant systems are > required. Add to the list of gear needed, for any deep dive, extra > battery pack(s) TWO sets of electric underwear and one if not TWO > more holes in your drysuit. Beyond the gear added your rig you have > added complexities. Managing the gear, moving the gear and switching > to a backup system if (when) the primary system fails. > > When you make the decision you are going to do a deep ice dive with > the needed deco, you must recognize that supplemental heat is no > longer a luxury, it is necessity! How you deal with all the extra > gear and how you handle the problems that ARE going to occur WILL be > the difference between a fun dive and DEATH. To take this one step > further, how the addition to the gear affects the original > configuration becomes a concern. > > Again, proper dive planing mandates that the diver can abort a dive > and return safely at any point in the dive. But when supplemental > heat become essential for the success of the dive you have an > accident waiting to happen. Even if multiple back ups are used there > still flaws in the system. Not only in how to deal with a broken > wire inside the suit. But how do you deal with a flooded suit? One > second your warm and dry, next second Willie the One Eyed Wonder Worm > took the string and left town! If you manage to survive it will be > weeks before you can pee standing up again. > > The problem of a suit flood is NOT dire if the surface temps are > warmer, as they are in the summer months. Relief from the biting > cold is only a short distance away in the warmer surface waters. But > with constant water temperatures of 36-38 degrees or less from bottom > to last stop at 10', there is no relief. Only continued loss of core > temperature. Further complicating matters by adding more gear is not > the answer either. Every piece of extra gear only takes away from > the safety of the dive. It DOES NOT enhance it!!! Only a fool would > spend more money for less safety. Only a DANGEROUS STROKE would > suggest that others do the same > > I take a lot of heat there because of my firm stand against what I > see as stupidity. But we must all realize that if we don't start to > think things through, use our heads and make sound ration decisions > about our diving habits we will no longer be able to peruse our > sport. It is some times hard to make every point as clear as I have > tried to make this one. Some times, I resort to what I call the > "Bitch Slap" method to get the attention of others. However, I > assure you that every reply I post is thought out as carefully as > this one was. I also assure you that I will continue with this > approach until all those afflicted with Cerebralanalitus are cured or > at least in remission. > > To all those following blindly, > > Stop!!! Ask yourself this one question. Am I following the lead of > someone who knows, someone who thinks they know or someone so > clueless that they will kill me with out even realizing a problem > existed? If you can't be certain that they KNOW, go home and read a > book. Don't let someone else convince you that stupid is okay > because they are the "Instructor". If it sounds dangerous, you are > either not ready to do it or shouldn't be doing it at all. It is > that simple. > > Be safe! Be smart! And have a Happy Holiday everyone > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 > Charset: noconv > > iQA/AwUBNJy8C/PdqRXLjbJGEQKSAACfaaXCScHDjBi3eG6pBiUKc5JBdYAAoO0n > Bk+r3ybOPYRH3zGbHXy3Bhgy > =qoV+ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Bill (aquadart) Bott > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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