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Thanks for the interesting information. By oxtox, I was referring to = the fact that it is very easy to surpass the MOD for a mix by a = clueless diver, while it is very unlikely that a HPNS situation would = take place in normal extended range diving. In this respect nitrox could be considered more dangerous than a = normoxic trimix. And, as I understand it, helium does not induce = bloodcell ridgedity, and the ensuing damage, as does nitrogen. So, = for the same tables, a enriched helium mix would result in less = damage to the body and less risk of ox induced sezures plus = elimination of narcosis (which does in it's share of divers). I would = think this is why you sat guys use the stuff... My goal is *not* to reduce decom time but to reduce the risk of long = term damage from high pp's of nitrogen, narcosis related mistakes and = risk of seizure from high pp's of ox. You think this is a valid line of reasoning for a sport/tech diver? Jim on 6/6/97 11:52 AM Ocean Diving Inc. wrote: >Jim, >Most sat dives are made at a PO2 of .35 to .50 for up to 28 days at = depth. >The long term effects are noticed as slight to moderate pre-aging = symptoms >for divers that either maintained an exercise and fitness plan or did not >"respectively" . Most of the guys I work with are MetRx junkies and squat >300lbs 3 times a week. Bottom line... >We spend hours and hours with exposures of PO2's from 1.6 to 1.0 during >deco along with air breaks every half hour. No oxtox yet. >As for Helium... HPNS is High Pressure Nerve Syndrome and it can be >reduced with N2 @ 4% as a buffer along with slower decent rates. = Generally >it is not a problem in less than 400'. Some never get it, I've never felt >it nor no of any that did. I can tell you that He bends are far more >painful and life- threatening than N2 bends and that is what every trimix >diver has to accept. The effects of shaving stops and omitting stops will >be felt sooner and with more devastating physiological damage than you >would ever want to go through. Technical diving will remain a risk >acceptance sport and the "process of natural selection" will continue to >take it's toll as inquiring minds don't always follow the rules. Safety = is >my main concern. If it can't be done safely I won't do it. Who is wiser, = a >diver with a high IQ or a diver that's just smart enough to survive a >life-threatening situation? Bogus is to Nitrox as Pain is to Ignorance. >Stupid is as stupid does, if you remember what Forrest Gump's mama always >said. >Sempre Deep, >Capt. Jim > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Cobb [SMTP:cobber@mi*.co*] >Sent: Friday, June 06, 1997 11:06 AM >To: Ocean Diving Inc.; Nigel Chase ; Tech Diver >Subject: RE: Bogus Nitrox > >Soooo, whats your point? You are saying that all there is to know about >exposure to high pp's has already been discovered and is in the books? = And >therefore ppO2 of 1.6 are just fine, with 1.4 being a bunch of hooey? If >1.4 is better than 1.6, then 1.0 is better than 1.4? Why is this? > >What do the sat guys know about the long term effects of exposure to high >pp's of oxygen? If so, what are these effects? How about helium? What are >the maximum pp limits of helium exposure? Is there helium toxicity? We >already know about the drawbacks and benefits of nitrogen, but if there = is >ox tox but no he tox, then what are we arguing about? > >These sat divers, how long do they remain in the biz? None of these guys >have any physiological problems due to long term exposure to high pp's? >How much in water decom do they do? How much of the decom knowledge is >proprietary? > >Excuse the flurry of questions, but inquiring minds want to know. > > Jim > >on 6/6/97 10:21 AM Ocean Diving Inc. wrote: > >>It is obvious that most of you forgot that sat divers spend more of = their >>time in deco on nitrox and O2 then they do at depth on any mix. Quit >>diving if you feel that the wheel has not already been invented. The = code >>is written in blood. You pay for your mistakes by dying on the spot or >>suffering from the damage caused due to unfinished decompression >>schedules. Some guys are impatient and some are stupid and some are = both. >>Hyperbaric medicine is gaining attention as it is used to treat many >>ailment other than diver related needs. Nitrogen will remain the bad = guy, >>and education is the key to understanding how to minimize exposures. = Time >>and depth decisions will always dictate the gasses that I carry to >>complete any dive. If O2 scares you then go back to school and relearn >>what has been known by COMEX, TAYLOR, HAMILTON, >>RUTKOWSKI, and thousands of us that have been working this gas into each >>and every dive we make. >>Sempre Deep, >>Capt. Jim >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jim Cobb [SMTP:cobber@mi*.co*] >>Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 11:33 AM >>To: Nigel Chase; Tech Diver >>Subject: Re: Bogus Nitrox >> >>Fucking great post, Nigel. >> >>I am into nitrox, insofar as reducing nitrogen intake. I use it as a >>safety gas, using regular tables (albeit to the limit). But, since = reading >>George's posts, it seems so obvious. Here we are replacing nitrogen with >>something even more insidious, oxygen. Not only are we increasing the >>percentage of oxygen, but also it's pp. We are imposing MODs on divers = not >>keyed to thinking about MODS. >> >>So, nitrox is bogus, what to do? I ran my thoughts by a couple of dive >>shops around here about using trimix in the fashion you describe in your >>post and they looked at me in horror. Man, these poors SOB's just got = over >>the trauma of nitrox and now trimix? And some poor slobs have bought >>$100,000 membrane nitrox systems. "sputter sputter, tttrimix? Why you = have >>to take the nitrox, deep nitrox, technical nitrox, deep air, technical >>deep air before you even get to the trimix course". >> >>What will it take to get gas mixtures back on the right track? A fucking >>act of God because the marketing people are into nitrox and they will = hold >>onto it like a pissed-off moray eel. This will be handled, like George >>predicts, like Tobacco. First a giant coverup then endless lawsuits. >> >>Jezus Christ, I feel like an idiot. What to do? Well, anyone in Virginia >>Beach, VA want to go in on a helium cascade setup? >> >> Jim >> >>On 6/4/97 10:08 AM Nigel Chase wrote: >> >>>You Yanks really crack me up. This nitrox business of yours is showing >>>up everywhere in the UK. Dive charters are looking more like Labor >>>party rallies with all of these silly stickers and such pasted on tanks >>>and car bumpers. The biggest acronym of them all, IANTD, just recently >>>staged a sizeable convention with all sorts of technical diving >>>luminaries present. >>> >>>Looks to me like the big lie has sucked in all of the really big fish. >>>When the facts finally become known on this foolishness the scene will >>>be reminiscent of the Nuremberg trials with everyone pointing their >>>fingers at the next higher up while claiming complete innocence and >>>total ignorance. When the dust settles this poor bloke Rutkowski, who >>>supposedly invented all of this stuff, will be the fall guy for the >>>cadre of world experts. I can just picture him now, all red faced and >>>sitting in the dock, with his solicitor purporting that it really was a >>>divine (but erroneous) inspiration and pleading for the courts mercy. >>> >>>I was in the chemist yesterday and I couldn=EDt help but notice that >>>almost one entire aisle of the store was devoted to antioxidant >>>vitamins. Let=EDs see: there were all sorts of vitamin Cs, vitamin Es, >>>vitamin A , B complexes, pynxogenol, mineral supplements and to top it >>>all off hormones like melatonin which spposedly has mega antioxidant >>>powers. In fact the whole thrust of the anti cancer and anti aging >>>crusade seems to be oriented around the power of antioxidants in >>>preventing free radicals from damaging connective tissue and DNA. Many >>>physicians now agree that colon cancer as well as arteriosclerosis are >>>preventable through a proper diet, high in antioxidants. >>> >>>When this as a backdrop why on earth would anyone in their right mind >>>voluntarily expose themselves to a ultra hyperoxic breathing mix unless >>>it was absolutely necessary. I would love one of you Yank diving rocket >>>scientists out there to tell me that oxygen is not an oxidizer if you >>>breath it (while you busily oxygen clean tanks and replace buna o-rings >>>with Viton). Instead of boosting the oxygen content of the breathing = gas >>>I would lower it and replace it instead with an inert gas such as >>>helium. Nitrox I should really be 12 - 14% helium and 19% oxygen. = Nitrox >>>II should be slightly higher helium and lower oxygen still. I am not >>>advocating this for deep diving either (Deep diving for me is another >>>whole subject). This is strictly my suggestion for a physiologically >>>more healthy mix. Helium is a very rapid diffusing gas and transits = the >>>tissue rather quickly for low to moderate exposure dives. Weigh the >>>advantages: reduced ppo2, reduced ppn2 (bad for those red blood cells >>>and capillaries) and reduced deco (if you don=EDt have a pfo). >>> >>>Helium is bloody expensive in the UK and Oz, but when you keep the mix >>>to 10 -14% on an 80cf tank you can get as many as 30 dives out of a >>>290-300cf cylinder of helium when you cascade several. Even at $200 >>>U.S. per cylinder this works out to 6 - $10 additional cost per dive. >>>Big deal! Look what dive charters cost these days and with the weather >>>in the UK being typically bad all of the time, how many weekends of >>>diving do you actually get anyway. We spend more on petrol driving to >>>the port of embarkation. >>> >>>On one final note. I am new to this list but I have been following = some >>>of the traffic on cavers and over on Compuserve. This chap of yours, >>>Irving, who I believe is director of a project with a name like the = call >>>letters of a radio station, seems to have this figured out way ahead of >>>the rest of you Yanks. I noticed, while following the thread on deep >>>air, that Irving dives shallow in the ocean with weak helium and = reduced >>>oxygen mixes. I also couldn=EDt help but notice that his group = uses >>>very low ppo2 trimixes for their deep dives and is using reduced >>>nitrogen/o2 mixes for intermediate deco. Irving also said somewhere = that >>>he only uses nitrox when it is absolutely necessary and not otherwise. >>> >>>When the truth comes out on this nitrox business you are going to see a >>>lot of bumper stickers and dive shop front doors with the IEC verboten >>>symbol (red circle with a hash) over the nitrox. >>> >>> >>>Cheers, >>> >>>Nigel Chase >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------------------------------- >>>Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >>>--------------------------------------------------------- >>-- >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>Send list subscription requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> > on 6/6/97 11:52 AM Ocean Diving Inc. wrote: >Jim, >Most sat dives are made at a PO2 of .35 to .50 for up to 28 days at = depth. >The long term effects are noticed as slight to moderate pre-aging = symptoms >for divers that either maintained an exercise and fitness plan or did not >"respectively" . Most of the guys I work with are MetRx junkies and squat >300lbs 3 times a week. Bottom line... >We spend hours and hours with exposures of PO2's from 1.6 to 1.0 during >deco along with air breaks every half hour. No oxtox yet. >As for Helium... HPNS is High Pressure Nerve Syndrome and it can be >reduced with N2 @ 4% as a buffer along with slower decent rates. = Generally >it is not a problem in less than 400'. Some never get it, I've never felt >it nor no of any that did. I can tell you that He bends are far more >painful and life- threatening than N2 bends and that is what every trimix >diver has to accept. The effects of shaving stops and omitting stops will >be felt sooner and with more devastating physiological damage than you >would ever want to go through. Technical diving will remain a risk >acceptance sport and the "process of natural selection" will continue to >take it's toll as inquiring minds don't always follow the rules. Safety = is >my main concern. If it can't be done safely I won't do it. Who is wiser, = a >diver with a high IQ or a diver that's just smart enough to survive a >life-threatening situation? Bogus is to Nitrox as Pain is to Ignorance. >Stupid is as stupid does, if you remember what Forrest Gump's mama always >said. >Sempre Deep, >Capt. Jim > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Cobb [SMTP:cobber@mi*.co*] >Sent: Friday, June 06, 1997 11:06 AM >To: Ocean Diving Inc.; Nigel Chase ; Tech Diver >Subject: RE: Bogus Nitrox > >Soooo, whats your point? You are saying that all there is to know about >exposure to high pp's has already been discovered and is in the books? = And >therefore ppO2 of 1.6 are just fine, with 1.4 being a bunch of hooey? If >1.4 is better than 1.6, then 1.0 is better than 1.4? Why is this? > >What do the sat guys know about the long term effects of exposure to high >pp's of oxygen? If so, what are these effects? How about helium? What are >the maximum pp limits of helium exposure? Is there helium toxicity? We >already know about the drawbacks and benefits of nitrogen, but if there = is >ox tox but no he tox, then what are we arguing about? > >These sat divers, how long do they remain in the biz? None of these guys >have any physiological problems due to long term exposure to high pp's? >How much in water decom do they do? How much of the decom knowledge is >proprietary? > >Excuse the flurry of questions, but inquiring minds want to know. > > Jim > >on 6/6/97 10:21 AM Ocean Diving Inc. wrote: > >>It is obvious that most of you forgot that sat divers spend more of = their >>time in deco on nitrox and O2 then they do at depth on any mix. Quit >>diving if you feel that the wheel has not already been invented. The = code >>is written in blood. You pay for your mistakes by dying on the spot or >>suffering from the damage caused due to unfinished decompression >>schedules. Some guys are impatient and some are stupid and some are = both. >>Hyperbaric medicine is gaining attention as it is used to treat many >>ailment other than diver related needs. Nitrogen will remain the bad = guy, >>and education is the key to understanding how to minimize exposures. = Time >>and depth decisions will always dictate the gasses that I carry to >>complete any dive. If O2 scares you then go back to school and relearn >>what has been known by COMEX, TAYLOR, HAMILTON, >>RUTKOWSKI, and thousands of us that have been working this gas into each >>and every dive we make. >>Sempre Deep, >>Capt. Jim >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jim Cobb [SMTP:cobber@mi*.co*] >>Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 11:33 AM >>To: Nigel Chase; Tech Diver >>Subject: Re: Bogus Nitrox >> >>Fucking great post, Nigel. >> >>I am into nitrox, insofar as reducing nitrogen intake. I use it as a >>safety gas, using regular tables (albeit to the limit). But, since = reading >>George's posts, it seems so obvious. Here we are replacing nitrogen with >>something even more insidious, oxygen. Not only are we increasing the >>percentage of oxygen, but also it's pp. We are imposing MODs on divers = not >>keyed to thinking about MODS. >> >>So, nitrox is bogus, what to do? I ran my thoughts by a couple of dive >>shops around here about using trimix in the fashion you describe in your >>post and they looked at me in horror. Man, these poors SOB's just got = over >>the trauma of nitrox and now trimix? And some poor slobs have bought >>$100,000 membrane nitrox systems. "sputter sputter, tttrimix? Why you = have >>to take the nitrox, deep nitrox, technical nitrox, deep air, technical >>deep air before you even get to the trimix course". >> >>What will it take to get gas mixtures back on the right track? A fucking >>act of God because the marketing people are into nitrox and they will = hold >>onto it like a pissed-off moray eel. This will be handled, like George >>predicts, like Tobacco. First a giant coverup then endless lawsuits. >> >>Jezus Christ, I feel like an idiot. What to do? Well, anyone in Virginia >>Beach, VA want to go in on a helium cascade setup? >> >> Jim >> >>On 6/4/97 10:08 AM Nigel Chase wrote: >> >>>You Yanks really crack me up. This nitrox business of yours is showing >>>up everywhere in the UK. Dive charters are looking more like Labor >>>party rallies with all of these silly stickers and such pasted on tanks >>>and car bumpers. The biggest acronym of them all, IANTD, just recently >>>staged a sizeable convention with all sorts of technical diving >>>luminaries present. >>> >>>Looks to me like the big lie has sucked in all of the really big fish. >>>When the facts finally become known on this foolishness the scene will >>>be reminiscent of the Nuremberg trials with everyone pointing their >>>fingers at the next higher up while claiming complete innocence and >>>total ignorance. When the dust settles this poor bloke Rutkowski, who >>>supposedly invented all of this stuff, will be the fall guy for the >>>cadre of world experts. I can just picture him now, all red faced and >>>sitting in the dock, with his solicitor purporting that it really was a >>>divine (but erroneous) inspiration and pleading for the courts mercy. >>> >>>I was in the chemist yesterday and I couldn=EDt help but notice that >>>almost one entire aisle of the store was devoted to antioxidant >>>vitamins. Let=EDs see: there were all sorts of vitamin Cs, vitamin Es, >>>vitamin A , B complexes, pynxogenol, mineral supplements and to top it >>>all off hormones like melatonin which spposedly has mega antioxidant >>>powers. In fact the whole thrust of the anti cancer and anti aging >>>crusade seems to be oriented around the power of antioxidants in >>>preventing free radicals from damaging connective tissue and DNA. Many >>>physicians now agree that colon cancer as well as arteriosclerosis are >>>preventable through a proper diet, high in antioxidants. >>> >>>When this as a backdrop why on earth would anyone in their right mind >>>voluntarily expose themselves to a ultra hyperoxic breathing mix unless >>>it was absolutely necessary. I would love one of you Yank diving rocket >>>scientists out there to tell me that oxygen is not an oxidizer if you >>>breath it (while you busily oxygen clean tanks and replace buna o-rings >>>with Viton). Instead of boosting the oxygen content of the breathing = gas >>>I would lower it and replace it instead with an inert gas such as >>>helium. Nitrox I should really be 12 - 14% helium and 19% oxygen. = Nitrox >>>II should be slightly higher helium and lower oxygen still. I am not >>>advocating this for deep diving either (Deep diving for me is another >>>whole subject). This is strictly my suggestion for a physiologically >>>more healthy mix. Helium is a very rapid diffusing gas and transits = the >>>tissue rather quickly for low to moderate exposure dives. Weigh the >>>advantages: reduced ppo2, reduced ppn2 (bad for those red blood cells >>>and capillaries) and reduced deco (if you don=EDt have a pfo). >>> >>>Helium is bloody expensive in the UK and Oz, but when you keep the mix >>>to 10 -14% on an 80cf tank you can get as many as 30 dives out of a >>>290-300cf cylinder of helium when you cascade several. Even at $200 >>>U.S. per cylinder this works out to 6 - $10 additional cost per dive. >>>Big deal! Look what dive charters cost these days and with the weather >>>in the UK being typically bad all of the time, how many weekends of >>>diving do you actually get anyway. We spend more on petrol driving to >>>the port of embarkation. >>> >>>On one final note. I am new to this list but I have been following = some >>>of the traffic on cavers and over on Compuserve. This chap of yours, >>>Irving, who I believe is director of a project with a name like the = call >>>letters of a radio station, seems to have this figured out way ahead of >>>the rest of you Yanks. I noticed, while following the thread on deep >>>air, that Irving dives shallow in the ocean with weak helium and = reduced >>>oxygen mixes. I also couldn=EDt help but notice that his group = uses >>>very low ppo2 trimixes for their deep dives and is using reduced >>>nitrogen/o2 mixes for intermediate deco. Irving also said somewhere = that >>>he only uses nitrox when it is absolutely necessary and not otherwise. >>> >>>When the truth comes out on this nitrox business you are going to see a >>>lot of bumper stickers and dive shop front doors with the IEC verboten >>>symbol (red circle with a hash) over the nitrox. >>> >>> >>>Cheers, >>> >>>Nigel Chase >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------------------------------- >>>Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >>>--------------------------------------------------------- >>-- >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>Send list subscription requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send list subscription requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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