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Scott -- Good answers, honest and true! Thanks! Additional thoughts per your comments below. >chris, > ><<Is every equipment manufacturer, of the gear that you're >employing on a dive to 300 ft. in a cave, liable when something >happens, or just the scooter maker?>> > >bill and george ARE NOT equipment manufacturers with big liabilty >insurance policies and corporate lawyers to cover their asses. >they are individuals that don't need some widow reaching into >their wallets. From what I understand, lawyers look for *insured* targets -- so that there are some worthy pockets to hit. My advice: incorporate and insure the company -- but don't make it a company connected to personal assets. Don't manufacturers do that all the time? Insurance and corp. experts have any insights/corrections? Or, simply remain uninsured. For targets w/o insurance, lawyers know they won't get much and it ain't worth the time to sue. I have a friend who invented/markets a univerally adopted parachute release (= Big Bucks) -- his company is called "The Un-Insured Relative Workshop" for just that reason. Lawyers (hopefully) will go "Forget him." This was all discussed at the C2 forum in Key West a couple years ago. (And yes, what a bunch of sissies were there: Billy Deans, Mount, D. Pierce, Rich P., Bev Morgan, Marty Snyderman, Navy SEALS. ;-) ) > ><<Is there a difference in liability (for anything) when on a >300ft deep cave dive vs. deep o/w dive vs. shallow o/w dive?>> > >ask your insurance agent that question when applying for life >insurance. let me know when he gets up off the floor. I think life insurance is different from liability insurance. Also, my agent doesn't laugh when I show up -- he cries. In my experience, insurance agencies are all screwy. They think a diver who does a lot of diving (is more current/practiced/experienced, etc) is more of a risk than one who only dives once a year. Go figure! Yes, I know it's a statistical thing -- but, silly them, it doesn't account for ability. you need >proper certification with a cave diving organization to use these >scooters. I'm certainly missing something here -- can't a basic-cert. o/w diver get the hang of being towed by this or any scooter? Now, if someone is going to *cave dive* with it, you're saying the manufacturer reserves the right to qualify the buyer.I get it now. This is intentionally limiting. That's cool: prevents "someone" from getting one. But since there's no danger that "someone" can extend your lines, why worry? If there is a caveat/agreement to purchase a gavin scooter, then it must certainly be adhered to. Not arguing otherwise -- but I still wish y'all could tolerate a little ribbing. Wait'll you see my Top Ten Reasons For Not Buying a Cis-Lunar -- maybe you'll enjoy that one more. Fortunately, no other dive equip. manufacturer Qualifies and Limits this way -- but then they want to sell a bunch. If all the equip. manuf. did Q&L there would be some rather nekked cave divers out there. Imagine AUL qualifying every light buyer -- out of fear that someone would copy, and/or cave dive and die with their light/a copy. Imagine the paperwork/expense of doing "dive trials" with every customer. There's an argument that scooters are life-support and that's where the liability comes in. I''l buy that. But a WKPP member told me the (critical) back-ups the exploration divers tow are Teknas. I smell an irony there but I'm not gonna touch it -- I'm in enuff trouble already. ;-) >the certification is official wkpp support or above >and the organization is wkpp. hey, if people don't like it, they >can keep diving teknas at ginnie. Precisely. With rebreathers even. And they have. Rock on. <Does having a patent on a piece of gear insure a manufacturer >against liablity?>> > >no, it protects the individual without huge liability insurance >policies from having weenies copy it and end up dead in eagle's >nest when the scooter quits because they screwed something up >during the half-assed design and it fails at the end of the line. Have people copied scooters, had them fail, kakked, sued the designer of the orig. -- and won? Wow! Please elaborate. ><<I really don't know -- I'm ignorant -- I'm in the dark here. >>This might be worth illuminating for other list readrs as well.>> > >show up at wakulla with cotton on 8/2-4 and that can be fixed. >the other readers can show up, also. How would driving to wakulla on 8/24 help us with these patent/liability questions? That's what I was asking about. i drive 650 miles each way >to do this for just the weekend, so i don't want to hear people >crying about how far it is to show up. OK! ><<Also, once you *own* a piece of dive gear, unless you agree to >and sign a legally-binding non-disclosure document, may you do >anything you want with it?>> > >nobody is forcing anybody to buy gavin scooters. No shit. Where did someone say they are? I missed it. >they are a TEAM >scooter. TEAM players do this out of pride and respect. i won't >let anybody but a team member anywhere near my scooter. you >shell out $3000+ and see whether or not you'll lend it out. Yup, agreed -- reminds me of Sheck's response to a request to borrow his scooter during Wak1: "You can play with anything I've got, including my wife -- just don't touch my scooter." Later on (Thanksgiving eve), he had a scooter breakdown. Isn't it ironic? Glad you took the time to give me the straight poop. In the interest of fair play, and to assure those who might doubt that I'm willing to critically spoof both sides, I hope you enjoy the Top Ten Reasons For Not Buying a Cis-Lunar. All the best, Christopher A. Brown Sci-Graphica PR and DOCENT FILMS The Technical Diving Video Library (TDVL) (N.Am. & Canada): 1-800-373-7222 Outside US:904-942-7222 Fax:904-942-1240 Life is short -- this is not a rehearsal.
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