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Dan What proof do we have that these things are happening. They may very well be. But also bare in mind that there has been a continuing rub between G and Stone/King etc for many years. And bad poltics have gone both ways. Both groups lobby to Govt officals and I imagine knowing some of both parties that neither is above doing what is accussed of happening. The attacks on King, Stone, Wes and numerous other well respected (off this list any way) are numerous on the net. That to is rather improper poltical action and is a similar tatic used by many polticians discredit your opposition and the public sees the image you want portrayed, not the whole picture. I support WKPP in most areas. I do not support the personal attacks to others in the dive community made by anyone and while if this(the poltical crap) is going on it is in poor taste but I nor you have any idea of the type lobbying being conducte towards them either. We know the slams on the net and that may indicate the same approach to lobbying. As far as your kicking sand in someones face if that is what you want to do then you tell them, However again if you do not know someones backgropund that may be a bad choice of reactions. To dissaprove of bad poltics is great provided one knows for a fact the degree of bad poltics that exist and the balance in bad poltics among the polticians. I personally would want some form of proof and some form of knowing the poltics from both parties before I jumped on a band wagon for or against anyone. I think your discrediting dive ability and acomplishments of people you do not know, and evidently have no understanding of their background is rather childish and foolish. If you want to make an issue of what you think is hapening in the poltical arena that is human natue but to discredit an accomplished cave diver(s) because you think and have at least a perception that there poltical morality is bad is not. Diving ability is not poltics. The diving attack is far from admirable, in fact it detracts from any real issue you wish to make. Instead of sounding like an informed person it makes you come across as a spoiled child. To me the tradgey of this situtation is that the parties involved cannot sit down and work out some joint understandings. I think george was invited to several meetings to attempt to do this, i do not know if he went nor what may have been discussed, just as you do not know. I too would love to dive in Wakulla and I have myself to blame for not being there as George has been kind enough to invite me, even tho i do wear a transpack. I consider George as a friend but we will never always agree on issues and I certainly do not beleive he will stay off the net and I damn sure want him to stay on. I also wish all the other parties who are out there would become active here. Tom You wrote: > >Tom, >As I see it, what they did was so BULLSHIT, I have zero respect for them, >and anyone associated with them. >And you can tell any of them, I'll kick sand in their face any time I see them. >Dan > >>Dan >>It is intresting to note that you attack divers that you do not know, >>have never dived with and are totally unaware of their real skills. >> >>Nothing to do with Wakulla but, Wes skiles is well respected by the >>cave community overall. He also has more than 20 years of cave diving >>experience and is active cave diving as evidenced by the recent mexico >>film. Why don't you check with Mike Madden on his abilities and skills. >>Wes has some rather major accomplishments under his belt. >> >>Jim King is a safe and overall respected cave diver and is a good cave >>diver he too has made some rather interesting dives. >> >>Bill Stone is a caver and from all I can gather from people who dive >>with him a good cave diver.I do not know him well enough to really give >>an opnion, but others do. >> >>I may or may not agree with some or any of these folks, but your >>statements to their abilities are in left field. >> >>I'm amazed how many non or inexperienced cave divers are experts on the >>net regarding other divers they know nothing of and base their opnions >>on rumor and insinuations.Get Real Dan! >> >>I too beleive George/ the WKPP team work, is more competent at >>exploration and has a good team, but that does not imply that the >>others are not good and comptent each of them has added signifactnly in >>the past to cave knowledge, technique etc. Maybe you should go to >>members of the cave community at large before casting doubt on them. >>you can begin by contacting WKPP members such as JJ, Steve Berman,etc. >>as far as Wes and some of the others are concerned. In fact why don't >>you contact the memberships of NACD, and NSS CDS condemn them. >> >>I'm not endorsing anyone in this and I do not like the politics from >>either side. In fact until recent yeards this community has always >>worked together , just in the last few years has it became such a this >>side that side isssue, which is really sad and makes all of us look >>like fools. Letters such as you just published make this flourish. >>Tom Mount >>You wrote: >>> >>>Sounds like its time for EVERYONE ON THE LISTS to begin telling the >>REAL >>>TRUTH about the proficiency levels of Bill Stone, Jim King, Wes >>Skiles and >>>their buddies....and no punches should be pulled. >>> >>>The top ranking politicians should get the opportunity to know how >>little >>>respect Stone, King and Skiles et al have with their peers, through >>>printouts of the tech and cavers list we can all mail to them. >>> >>>I'll start this by saying categorically that George would be safer >>with a >>>single 80 and diving solo, than these half wits would be in full cave >>dress... >>> >>>How many polititians are going to want to "create" AND BE >>"RESPONSIBLE FOR" >>>cave diving deaths, by allowing horrifyingly incompetent strokes to >>dive in >>>places they are unlikely to survive----- >>> >>>We should ALL GO ON RECORD AS STATING THAT IF STONE, SKILES ET AL GO >>IN TO >>>WAKULLA, THE DEATHS WILL BE LARGELY THE FAULT OF POLITITCIANS WHO >>SIDED >>>WITH THE "MOMA'S BOYS" OVER THE BIGGER BOYS WHO CALLED THEM >>WIMPS....WOULD >>>THESE SAME POLITICIANS SEND 12 YEAR OLD CHILDREN TO BATTLE IN FOREIGN >>WARS, >>>OR PARAPLEGICS, OR RETARDED PEOPLE??? WHERE WILL THEY DRAW THE LINE!!! >> >>>The issue at hand is not how "Nice" George is to people who say >>foolish >>>things, or even if he has made "nasty" slurs----the issue is, "who >>will be >>>safest, when exploring one of the most dangerous penetrations this >>>government is in a position to be responsible for"....Obviously the >>safest >>>and best group is WKPP, and "moma's boy" tactics by Stone and Skiles >>should >>>not be allowed to get them into Wakulla. >>> >>>Dan >>>> >>>>Fellow Cavers, >>>> >>>>Once again the ugly head of politics has risen to silence those >>people >>>>who would provide us with their knowledge and experience gained over >>>>the past several years. >>>> >>>>I'm sure most of you are not yet aware of this, however, Bill Stone, >>>>Jim King, Wes Skiles, et al have submitted a proposal to do >>>>exploration at Wakulla (one of the primary WKPP sites). To this end, >>>>they are taking numerous printouts of cavers and techdiver postings >>to >>>>high ranking government officials in an attempt to discredit WKPP and >>>>have their permits revoked. >>>> >>>>In order to avoid future controversy, several members of the WKPP >>have >>>>requested to be taken off of the cavers list and I have been informed >>>>that they have already unsubscribed from techdiver. I'd bet that the >>>>rest will follow shortly. I doubt that we'll be hearing from them >>any >>>>time soon. >>>> >>>>This type of action could not and should not go without public >>>>scrutiny. I will personally write to any manufacturer that uses >>>>people like this in their advertisements and inform them that because >>>>of their actions, I will no longer purchase their equipment. For >>>>example, I believe Dive Rite uses Wes Skiles in their Transpac ads, >>>>and I believe they are online here as well so, notice is served. I >>>>suggest that others do the same. >>>> >>>>However, there is a good body of up and coming cavers out there who >>>>have been trained by the best cave divers out there such as Steve >>>>Berman and Jarrod Jablonski and others. We will not let the >>questions >>>>on the list go unanswered or the list to go silent. >>>> >>>>-Carl- >>>> >>>>Just think... Hogarthian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@terra.net'. >>>>Send subscription/archive requests to `techdiver-request@terra.net'. >>>> >>>> >>>Dan Volker >>>SOUTH FLORIDA DIVE JOURNAL >>>"The Internet magazine for Underwater Photography and mpeg Video" >>>http://www.florida.net/scuba/dive >>>407-683-3592 >>> >>>-- >>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@terra.net'. >>>Send subscription/archive requests to `techdiver-request@terra.net'. >>> >> >> >Dan Volker >SOUTH FLORIDA DIVE JOURNAL >"The Internet magazine for Underwater Photography and mpeg Video" >http://www.florida.net/scuba/dive >407-683-3592 > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@terra.net'. >Send subscription/archive requests to `techdiver-request@terra.net'. >
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