Mailing List Archive Mailing List Archive
Sorry for the long post, but I thought it would be interesting for =
folks on this list to see the CIS sysops gloat over the dismissal of =
George off of the Compuserve forum. This thread makes me sick. It =
also makes me very glad that there are internet listservers which =
allow unexpurgated opinions in spite of the pitiful wining of certain =
individuals. Any attempts to require PGP or other such nonsense =
should be resisted with the strongest possible means.
Jim
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:14:27 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287481, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 1:59:27 AM
Subject: The Saga of George
From: JoeL Markwell (ATl) 73700,2054
To: All
Reply: #287525 (4 replies)
The following message appeared publicly on the Cavers mailing list =
tonight:
>>SNIP>>
From: gmiiii@@interserv.com
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:07:13 -0800
Subject: Safe Haven In Weenieland
To: cavers@@geek.com
All you Compuserve weenies should be safe now, as I am certain they =
will
kick me off. Besides this dope, I had a nice little note for =
(DELETED),
and some of the loons over there as well. This is what they sent me, =
and my
reply, a sure sushi winner. I will need somebody to vouch for me on =
this one,
as we will be at Lucy Ho's Saturday night, and unless Sankey really =
pulls one
out of the hat, I think I will be eating on his tab. :
(text of E-mail from Forum Sysop which was sent via E-mail so I won't =
repeat
it here--JOEL)
(DELETED), don't send me email. You go ahead and kick me off., but =
do not
waste any more of my time with your petty slobbering. I am a busy =
boy. Go
ahead, make my day. You will be the hero of weenieland. Then you can =
get out
your kneeepads, (EXPLETIVES DELETED). -G ------------------------
Well? I am cancelling my account with these pathetic weenies, so =
somebady
will have to verify that they did, in fact , kick me off. Actually, =
up until
I got this messge, I violated none of the guidelines for any maesages =
onthe
weenies' little forums - ask anyone who is on there who is not taking =
drugs.
In fact, I received the threatening, insultin, and vulgar messages. I =
guess
they figure that is ok, sicne I did not complain.
<<SNIP<<
In the text of the message tht I deleted above was an indication that =
there
has been about 25 complaints from folks regarding George's behavior. =
At the
same time tonight I recieved a complaint myself and the text of a =
private
E-mail that was as foul as anything I've seen online. I haven't been
monitoring things too closely lately as I've been busy, so I don't =
really
know everything that's been going on. I suspect some of it has been =
deleted
by others.
I am familiar with George Irvine's abrasive style, but have lately =
come to an
uneasy peace with him, even to the extent of his offering his =
cylinders to me
on an upcoming trip to Mexico. My impression is that in person and =
when
diving he is a decent person who likes to BS quite a bit with his =
buddies and
I really think that a lot of this is part of that behavior and an =
attempt to
liven things up. He also unapologetically and aggressively pushes a =
safety
message for Technical Divers that is often right on. On the other =
side, I
know first hand that he is often capable of extreme profanity mixed =
with
personal threats, insults of all kinds, faked E-mail also filled with
half-truths, slanders and insults. Why this is I don't know. He is
undoubtedly a gifted diver and head of an important group of divers =
who I
would feel privileged to dive with, so it seems incongruous to me =
that he
should behave as he often does.
Still, what I've personally seen online from George has lately not =
been too
bad, in fact he has answered quite a few folks congenially and in a
professional manner--of course I haven't seen everything and this =
certainly
doesn't include the E-mail he sends to folks who criticise anything =
he says.
I admit that I have even been provoked to reassess some of my =
assumptions
about configurations and technique because of the constant and =
insistent
voice of George--this doesn't mean I like his manner or even his =
message or
that I agree with everything, only that I am listening.
I think that it is quite possible to live with a George online so =
long as he
doesn't go too far, I even think he has and could add something of =
great
value on CIS. But what I have found is that in order to live with =
George you
have to bite your tongue when normally you might speak up about some =
excess
of his or criticism of another lest the entire thread degrade into a =
morass
of namecalling and angry and often profane BS. This is ultimately =
what is
unacceptable--the impossibility of rational discourse under these =
conditions.
The best thing about online services like this one is the democratic =
nature
of the discussion, that anyone can offer their insights, right or =
wrong, that
arguments can ensue on these issues without personal animosity or =
anger
(well, mostly . . .). There may be some value to having one expert =
voice
dispensing his/her wisdom from on high, quashing dissent on all =
sides, but
that has never been the way on CIS. There is no disputing that he has =
the
expertise, the experience and has "done the dives" to prove his =
points, but
rather than let that stand on its own merits, he has often resorted =
to less,
er, friendly means to enforce his opinion whereever it's heard and =
challenged
or discussed. In the end the discussion isn't safety or method, it's =
on
George himself.
Personally, I think his foray onto CIS was ultimately intended to be =
short
and I think, given his "sushi" bets that much of the stuff is an =
orchestrated
attempt to get kicked off, tick folks off and generally cause as much =
outrage
as possible in order to win these bets--who can say? Only George.
Of course, it remains to be seen if he is indeed outa here. What is =
YOUR
opinion of this situation? If you were in the Head Sysop's shoes what =
would
YOU do??
JoeL
Asst. Sysop
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:14:30 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287525, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 9:31:09 AM
Subject: #287481-The Saga of George
From: Michael J. Kravit (S.FL) 73521,457
To: JoeL Markwell (ATl) 73700,2054 (received)
Reply: #287548 (2 replies)
>> Of course, it remains to be seen if he is indeed outa here. What =
is YOUR opinion of this situation? If you were in the Head Sysop's =
shoes what would YOU do?? <<
Joel,
I am personally sorry to see George's expertise leave. Although I do =
not believe in degrading anyone for their opinions or values, I find =
his message an important one, despite the style of the messenger.
I have been accused of being George's "buddy", I am not. I never met =
him, but through this great medium of ours, he has provided a lot of =
help with my gear configuration for the courses I am presently =
taking. I certainly respect his abilities, his experience and his =
expertise. I personally can accept anyone's style. If you want to =
flame me....I can take it. In most cases, I probably deserve it. <g>. =
Instead of fanning the flames, back off and listen to the message.
The instructor with whom I am taking the Technical Nitrox course =
know's George personally. He has assured me that George is a very =
well liked individual by those that know him. Unfortunately he seems =
to rub folks the wrong way here in cyberspace.
Joel, as you stated, you two have found some common ground, tenuous =
as it may be. There are others here on CIS that have been very =
aggressive in their approach. In fact, I find the public posting made =
a few months ago by the "Net Lizard" to be much more offensive. I =
don't know about George's private email messages, but to me they have =
been very friendly.
The key, in my opinion is moderation and tolerance. We need to =
befriend those that wish to join us, and encourage them to =
participate in an acceptable manner. You and Mick have had some =
pretty intense discussions in the past, and as a matter of fact the =
"Black Divers Club" thread was heated at times to say the least.
George has some very pointed opinions about drugs and diving. He is =
in top physical condition and needs to be for the type of diving he =
does. If we don't agree with the message, the "DELETE" works just =
fine. My conclusion, let's have fun, dive and all try to respect each =
other.
Regards,
Mike
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:14:36 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287548, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 11:09:06 AM
Subject: #287525-The Saga of George
From: Sue Kovach [FL] 73543,1117
To: Michael J. Kravit (S.FL) 73521,457 (received)
Reply: #287565 (2 replies)
Mike --
I agree that there have been intense discussions in here in the past, =
but I don't recall any where people verbally abused and insulted each =
other to such a great level, or used profanity in the manner that =
George did regularly. As another member points out, the appearance =
was that George was here only to stir up trouble and didn't =
necessarily want to be a part of this forum -- George made it quite =
clear over and over again that all the members of this forum were way =
beneath him, and that right there says he did not want to truly be a =
part of this. I can certainly admire someone whose skills, knowledge =
and experience are far greater than mine -- I just have a small =
problem doing it when that person is constantly reminding me that I =
should be worshipping at his feet because he is divine in nature and =
I am but a mote of dust. <g>
While his experience and competence are well-known, what good is it =
at all to anyone here if he isn't willing to share his knowledge in a =
_constructive_ manner? He did have moments of constructive-ness here =
and there, but overall his approach was destructive. One never knew =
what side of the bed George got up on in the morning, and while he =
may have been friendly and open one time, he returned to his nasty =
side the next. All very disconcerting to the old forum regulars =
here, but imagine how newcomers felt when reading his diatribes.
My opinion is that the Sysop's decision was the correct one. I think =
it's now possible for everyone to get back to what this forum is and =
was all about -- diving, making friends and diving, and sharing =
knowledge and experiences with friends.
Sue
Asst. Sysop
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:14:41 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287565, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 11:31:10 AM
Subject: #287548-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Sue Kovach [FL] 73543,1117 (received)
Reply: #287594 (1 reply)
Sue:
Would you rather have advise that might kill you?
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:14:44 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287594, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 12:46:16 PM
Subject: #287565-The Saga of George
From: Sue Kovach [FL] 73543,1117
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #287619 (2 replies)
Alex --
>> Would you rather have advise that might kill you?>>
Uh, I think you really know the answer to that question. Most people =
will not take one piece of advice and act on it -- they gather =
information from more than one source and devise an action, strategy =
or opinion from it after thoughtful consideration. This is why =
threads are threads and not just one message. Your question implies =
that only George can give me the advice that will truly keep me =
alive. Sorry, but I don't buy that.
I stand by my belief that the action taken was the correct one for =
this forum.
Sue
Asst. Sysop
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:14:49 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287619, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 2:05:11 PM
Subject: #287594-The Saga of George
From: Bill Curnutte (OH) 76164,1674
To: Sue Kovach [FL] 73543,1117 (received)
Reply: #287631 (4 replies)
Right on, Sue!
Regarding Alex's comment to you, "Would you rather have advice that =
would kill you?", I don't think George wasn't kicked off the forum =
for his advice. And regarding your comment to him, "Uh, I think you =
know the answer to that one.", of course he does. He's just a little =
miffed at the moment that one of his sources of information on this =
forum is gone. I understand that. But he's still free to talk to =
him on the internet as much as he can stand <g>.
It seems to me that those who regret George's departure have missed =
the point. As far as I can tell, he wasn't thrown out for his advice =
or for the fact that he has strong, sincere opinions about technical =
diving or for his vast knowledge about technical diving or for his =
apparent skill in and dedication to what is more than a sport to him, =
but for what was, plain and simple, trashy behavior. As for "the =
rules of play were dictated by all that entered into the Pissing =
contest.", George set the tone and, therefore, the responsibility for =
the rules of play is his.
I have a five-year-old little girl who wants to go diving with daddy =
so bad that she can taste it. She also wants to get on the diving =
forum and talk to other divers just like daddy. Of course, she's a =
little young to do either right now (although we go snorkeling =
together every chance we get), but I certainly don't want her exposed =
to George's kind of trash when she finally can log on here. Thank God =
(and you) that Compuserve holds its members to a higher standard of =
behavior than exists on the internet.
Bill Curnutte
Portsmouth, Ohio
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:14:58 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287631, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 3:07:14 PM
Subject: #287619-The Saga of George
From: Michael J. Kravit (S.FL) 73521,457
To: Bill Curnutte (OH) 76164,1674 (received)
Reply: #287645 (2 replies)
>> but I certainly don't want her exposed to George's kind of trash =
when she finally can log on here. <<
Bill,
I also have children, please refrain from using foul language as in =
your last post that refers to an illegitimate child. That kind of =
language really is no better than Georges.<g>
Thanks.
Regards,
Mike
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:02 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287645, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 3:42:13 PM
Subject: #287631-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Michael J. Kravit (S.FL) 73521,457 (received)
Reply: #287722 (1 reply)
I agree with you Mike and it just goes to show that its OK for the =
select people but not OK for all.....Alex
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:07 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287722, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 6:45:10 PM
Subject: #287645-The Saga of George
From: Michael J. Kravit (S.FL) 73521,457
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
>> I agree with you Mike and it just goes to show that its OK for =
the select people but not OK for all.....Alex <<
Paul,
I really don't want to get into a discussion on that, BUT, hey were =
all guilty of foul language from time to time.<g> Heck, when my =
daughter started public school. parents used to call us up =
complaining about the jokes and things my daughter taught their kids. =
Seems my son (3 years older) was teaching her everything he learned. =
I was very embarrassed.
Anyway, this thing is over. If anyone wants to talk with George, he =
can be reached on the internet at techdiver@terra.net or =
cavers@ge*.co*
Thanks.
Best Wishes,
-Michael J. Kravit (S.FL)
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:10 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287651, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 4:05:15 PM
Subject: #287631-The Saga of George
From: Bill Curnutte (OH) 76164,1674
To: Michael J. Kravit (S.FL) 73521,457 (received)
Reply: #287721 (1 reply)
Mike,
I stand humbly corrected in public <half grinning, half serious, =
totally relieved>.
Bill Curnutte
Portsmouth, Ohio
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:15 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287721, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 6:45:06 PM
Subject: #287651-The Saga of George
From: Michael J. Kravit (S.FL) 73521,457
To: Bill Curnutte (OH) 76164,1674 (received)
>> I stand humbly corrected in public <half grinning, half serious, =
totally relieved>. <<
Hey Bill,
Now listen, I understand fully.<g>
I was cordial to George. He helped me, for goodness sakes...someone =
had to take the other side.
Take care.
Best Wishes,
-Michael J. Kravit (S.FL)
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:22 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287644, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 3:40:23 PM
Subject: #287619-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Bill Curnutte (OH) 76164,1674 (received)
Reply: #287662 (3 replies)
Bill I think a select few people politically railroaded George....Not =
a move decided by majority.....Alex
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:27 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287662, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 4:31:07 PM
Subject: #287644-The Saga of George
From: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #287685 (3 replies)
>> Bill I think a select few people politically railroaded =
George....Not a move decided by
>> majority.....Alex
Alex:
I can speak from strong personal experience with George in the past.
He and I have gone the rounds in an up close and personal way.
I do NOT think that he was railroaded at all.
George has a Very consitent tone and manner that he uses in all of =
the On-Line services.
Though I think he did as MUCH better job of behaiving on CIS than he =
does on the Internet, it was obviously still so caustic as to cause a =
number of complaints. And since this is a Private enterprise there is =
the option to retrict his activities. On the Internet there is =
nothing that anyone can do to stop him, and he runs wild, and I do =
mean WILD.
I would have to guess that nearly 50% of the techdiver messages are =
nothing but GARBAGE that geoge generates, and all of us have to wade =
through it to get to the good stuff that is buried underneath it.
Chris M. Parrett
Asst. Sysop, Software & Dive Industry sections
writing at 2:31 PM,
on Thursday, March 07, 1996
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:31 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287685, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 5:35:20 PM
Subject: #287662-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457 (received)
Reply: #287715 (5 replies)
Chris:
I think the key statement is that you and George have had =
it out on numerous occasions. Am I to assume that what your saying is =
that you've always been right? And that you've never said something =
in anger that you may or may not regret? You are also highlighting =
words to present a brash tone of voice should I shudder and feel that =
I may be attacked and further more complain to the Sysop that I feel =
your being rude and forceful online with me.
Give me one example if you would, of a dangerous diving =
practice that George has endorsed or suggested that was initially =
made him and not a sarcastic response to an attack on him or in =
response to someone that gave bad advise that he felt should know =
better. I swear I don't ask these questions or give these responses =
to be a jerk I just feel that none of us are above the rights =
guaranteed by the first amendment and I feel that Georges primary =
motivation is to help us be safe.
I know I'm taking an unpopular position and I hope I'm not the =
next to be forced out. But I've never been one to be quiet when I =
feel an injustice has been done and I'm to old to start now:-).
Take care Chris...................Alex
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:35 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287715, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 6:28:04 PM
Subject: #287685-The Saga of George
From: Sue Kovach [FL] 73543,1117
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #287718 (1 reply)
Alex --
<< Give me one example if you would, of a dangerous diving practice =
that George has endorsed or suggested>>
To my knowledge, George has never endorsed or suggested any sort of =
dangerous diving practice, nor to my knowledge has anyone ever =
accused him of doing so.
Sue
Asst. Sysop
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:39 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287718, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 6:37:12 PM
Subject: #287715-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Sue Kovach [FL] 73543,1117 (received)
Reply: #287741 (1 reply)
Sue: One of the Sysops just did.....................Some guy from =
Colorado with a software company.......................:-)....Alex
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:45 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287741, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 7:59:07 PM
Subject: #287718-The Saga of George
From: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #287749 (1 reply)
>> Sue: One of the Sysops just did.....................Some guy from =
Colorado with a software
>> company.......................:-)....Alex
Alex:
What unsafe practise did I make mention of?
Chris Parrett
President, Abysmal Diving Inc.
Abyss, Advanced Dive Planning Software.
The Ultimate Dive Software.
http://www.emi.net/gulfstream/abyss/abyss.html
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:48 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287749, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 8:27:14 PM
Subject: #287741-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457 (received)
Reply: #287770 (2 replies)
I would have to guess that nearly 50% of the techdiver messages are =
nothing but garbage that george generates and all of us have to wade =
through it to get to the good stuff that is buried underneath it. =
This only one of the posts however I stand corrected that the =
reference to promoting unsafe diving techniques was not made by you =
in the direct wording that I saw earlier. My apology it was another =
ass sysop. You at least offer some positive note.
Take care Chris..................................Alex
By the way where are your programs available:-)?
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:54 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287770, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 9:19:03 PM
Subject: #287749-The Saga of George
From: Dave McLean (equipment) 72521,2774
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #287775 (1 reply)
<<I stand corrected that the reference to promoting unsafe diving =
techniques was not made by you in the direct wording that I saw =
earlier. My apology it was another ass sysop. You at least offer =
some positive note.>>
Can you help us out here?? We like to self police our quality and if =
one of us is making statements that are unsafe we would appreciate =
hearing about it.
David McLean
Asst Sysop Equipment
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:15:57 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287775, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 9:32:18 PM
Subject: #287770-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Dave McLean (equipment) 72521,2774 (received)
Dave:
The reference was that George was making unsafe diving =
recommendations not a sysop and I asked that the statement be =
qualified by a sysop. I hope this wasn't =
offensive:-)........................Alex I appreciate cops, I am one.
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:16:01 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287999, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 12:34:10 PM
Subject: #287749-The Saga of George
From: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #288015 (1 reply)
Alex:
<<By the way where are your programs available:-)?>>
Right here in the forum, or at your local technical dive shop.
Tell me where you are living, and I will give you a list of the =
retailer closest to you.
Chris Parrett
President, Abysmal Diving Inc.
Abyss, Advanced Dive Planning Software.
The Ultimate Dive Software.
http://www.emi.net/gulfstream/abyss/abyss.html
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:16:07 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #288015, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 1:27:27 PM
Subject: #287999-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457
Thank you Chris:
I am in Keene NH and there really isn't =
any local tech dive shop near me. I am an OMS dealer though and would =
be happy to carry your software if you have no one in this neck of =
the woods. I setup shop to offer Tech diving equipment sales here as =
there is clearly a need. I really want to purchase your program for =
my own use however if fellow divers here get a look I'm sure that =
sales will result. Please keep me in mind as a New England =
dealer........................Thanks =
Chris:-).......................Alex
My address is: Paul Enterprises
649 Court St.
Keene, NH. 03431
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:16:11 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287740, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 7:58:24 PM
Subject: #287685-The Saga of George
From: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #287756 (1 reply)
>> Chris:
>> I think the key statement is that you and George have had it out =
on numerous
>> occasions. Am I to assume that what your saying is that you've =
always been right?
Not even close.
I have made plenty of mistakes, and I am usually the first one to =
admitt it.
if you have followed any of my work on Abyss you know that nearly all =
of it is public and out in the open.
>> And that you've
>> never said something in anger that you may or may not regret?
I am usually pretty carefull on this one.
What I say I usually mean.
But I sure as heck regret ever getting involved in the Cochran Vs. =
Uwatec discussion.
legally speaking, I wish I had never gotten involved. OH HOW I =
wish..........
>> You are also highlighting words to
>> present a brash tone of voice should I shudder and feel that I =
may be attacked and further more
>> complain to the Sysop that I feel your being rude and forceful =
online with me.
Here in lies the real rub with george.
He never offers his oppinion, he offers his TRUTH.
Whatever he says goes.
If you disagree, for ANY reason, your a stroke, or often times far =
worse.
The fact that there is a SYSOP that you can complain to on CIS is =
what makes this such a nice place to spend time.
There is NOTHING wrong with George telling you that he thinks your =
foolish for taking a specific course of action or oppinion.
There is something VERY wrong when he then launches into his personal =
assualts (which he does all too frequently).
>> Give me one
>> example if you would, of a dangerous diving practice that George =
has endorsed or suggested that was
>> initially made him and not a sarcastic response to an attack on =
him or in response to someone that
>> gave bad advise that he felt should know better. I swear I don't =
ask these questions or give these
>> responses to be a jerk I just feel that none of us are above the =
rights guaranteed by the first
>> amendment and I feel that Georges primary motivation is to help =
us be safe.
All in all that is "probably" true.
I do think that George is motivated by what he sees as what "works =
best" for his team, and he has NO hesitation to preach thouse views =
to anyone within earshot. problem is George has ZERO interpersonal =
skills.
My complaint has nevr been What he has to say, but How he says it.
And as for me, I know that George has made the mistake of jumping to =
fast comclusions and unsubstanciated oppinions.
Heck, just look at his all too public comments about my product, both =
"Before and After".
Talk about a 180' turn...
>> I know I'm taking
>> an unpopular position and I hope I'm not the next to be forced =
out. But I've never been one to be
>> quiet when I feel an injustice has been done and I'm to old to =
start now:-). Take care
>> Chris...................Alex
hey, welcome to the club.
Your not the first, and I am sure not the last to champion the =
unpopular side of the coin.
just ask Joel, he has been there many times <G>
Chris Parrett
President, Abysmal Diving Inc.
Abyss, Advanced Dive Planning Software.
The Ultimate Dive Software.
http://www.emi.net/gulfstream/abyss/abyss.html
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:16:14 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287756, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 8:43:26 PM
Subject: #287740-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457 (received)
Reply: #287998 (1 reply)
Chris: In the words of Mister Rogers:" can you say lynching? =
........Sure I new you could"
Take care Chris... I would like to buy one of your =
programs:-).....................Alex
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:16:17 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287998, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 12:34:08 PM
Subject: #287756-The Saga of George
From: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #288027 (2 replies)
>> Chris: In the words of Mister Rogers:" can you say lynching? =
........Sure I new you could" Take care
>> Chris... I would like to buy one of your =
programs:-).....................Alex
Alex:
Somehow I think I have failed to make my point.
George IS a valuable addition to the diving community.
George HAS much to contribute.
George CONTINUES to do things no toher are doing in deep long =
duration technical diving.
I am not placing ANY of these things in contention, not at all.
My problem with George is how he goes about communicating his =
expertise to the rest of the world.
George and I have come to a mutual understanding.
I don't care for his language, not at all, but I DO value his =
oppinion.
I just happen to think that he needs to work on polishing the rough =
edges a little bit, and that he seems to work SO hard at offending =
people.
Chris Parrett
President, Abysmal Diving Inc.
Abyss, Advanced Dive Planning Software.
The Ultimate Dive Software.
http://www.emi.net/gulfstream/abyss/abyss.html
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:16:21 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #288027, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 2:19:06 PM
Subject: #287998-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457
Chris:
The issue is behind us:-)......I understand and apreciate =
you opinion....Friends?
Take care...................Alex
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:16:24 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #288157, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 10:20:06 PM
Subject: #287998-The Saga of George
From: J. Silverstein - SUB AQU 72650,220
To: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457
Reply: #288510 (1 reply)
" and that he seems to work SO hard at offending people."
Chris, what you seem to miss is that he doesn't work hard at =
offending people - it just really comes naturally.
It's part of the job as an institutional bond/stock trader to be =
abrasive, aggressive, foul and a trash mouth - I know my ex was one.
MY2cents
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:16:28 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #288510, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Sun, Mar 10, 1996 10:58:01 AM
Subject: #288157-The Saga of George
From: JoeL Markwell (ATl) 73700,2054
To: J. Silverstein - SUB AQU 72650,220 (received)
Joel,
>to be abrasive, aggressive, foul and a trash mouth - I know my ex was =
>one.
Ouch! Spoken like a true divorcee! <g>
BTW, I concur. It comes naturally to him which may be why he cannot =
grasp that he is doing anything that is at all out of line--or maybe =
he can . . .
JoeL
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:16:32 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287942, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 11:10:26 AM
Subject: #287685-The Saga of George
From: JoeL Markwell (ATl) 73700,2054
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #287976 (2 replies)
Alex,
This has nothing whatsoever to do with George getting his bee-hind =
booted off
the Forum, but he has in the past advocated some dangerous practices. =
Here's
one that he posted just the other day:
>>One of my buddies took his mother on a sneak dive in Sally Ward, a 300 =
foot
>>deep cave, on a single tank with a Y valve. She is not even scuba =
certified,
>>and she got further intothe cave than Jim King did in 27 dives.
Now, this is dangerous! Since I cave dive, I am pretty sure this is =
BS, but
it isn't presented as BS and the average diver might think, WOW, and =
believe
it. Do you think this is dangerous? I deleted it, BTW, because it also
contained some profanity.
Now, the real issue. One thing that hasn't really been said enough is =
that
George wasn't tossed for being obnoxios now and then, he was actually =
tossed
for some pretty extreme profanity and for some very real-sounding =
threats.
You say you never saw any of this, well, that is because most of it =
was via
E-mail to Forum members. He physically threated more than one member, =
he
vented a list of profanities at a couple of members that I couldn't =
even
begin to post _part_ of here. I've been the recipient of such BS in =
the
past sent to me at my CIS address, it _was_ from outside and hey, =
it's a
tough world, but when he was using E-mail to respond to Forum messages
because he _knew_ he couldn't use this publicly, that's another =
matter. He
also used profanity ON the Forum, I know because I deleted one of =
them within
an hour of his posting it.
There may have been some folks who just plain disagreed with his =
style, his
directness and his poorly veiled public insults--which did exist =
BTW--, but
the real thing that got George chucked from our midst was his =
response to
Rick the Sysop's polite and direct request that he tone it down. =
George,
along with the other stuff that I have already posted in my original =
note,
told Rick to do something that I don't think Rick would be inclined =
to do. I
can't repeat it here, it's the sort of thing a trucker might yell at =
you
following the finger in traffic. That was what really got him booted. =
No
politics, no personal vendttas, just as clear-cut a case of someone =
TRYING
to get himself launched as I've ever seen. Just to put it in =
perspective, if
you went up to owner of the local dive shop or the head of your =
tennis club
and said . . . well, you said the most profane thing you could think =
of
directed at him AFTER he had already received several complaints of =
such
behavior, how long do you suppose it would take you to get his boot =
out of
your Calvin Kleins?? Quite a while I think, it might even require =
surgery.
The claim that others have been obnoxious or impolite or angry just
doesn't cut it either, they were bush-league compared to this stuff.
And we're really talking apples and oranges here. Insults and
arguments flare up here from time-to-time, that is normal in any forum
like this and especially here--but it fades. But there has not to my
knowledge been anyone who came IN pronouncing everyone on the Forum =
to be
Weenies, strokes & etc. who then followed that up with personal, vile =
and
profane private attacks and threats. George got deleted for cause, =
there
weren't any railroad tracks involved whatsoever. No politics.
Just in case you have any doubts, I'll post you two notes he sent to =
Rick and
another member and you can go to your local bar or Stripper's club, =
walk
up to the bouncer or just any patron who isn't deaf and repeat the =
notes I
send you to them and while you're recovering in the hospital . . . be =
sure to
drop me a line and let me know what the experience was like, OK?? And =
I
wonder, will the wire in your jaw set off the metal detector at the =
local
airport?? Just a thought . . . .
No, George got what he was looking for and it has nothing whatsoever =
to do
with how far he can swim into a cave.
JoeL
Asst. Sysop
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:16:37 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287976, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 12:15:19 PM
Subject: #287942-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: JoeL Markwell (ATl) 73700,2054 (received)
Joel: I do respect your position I'm just sorry that it got out of =
hand and I really feel that there was plenty of fuel added to the =
fire and the people that lost the battle made sure they won the =
war........I received plenty of E mail that clearly was an organized =
campaign to eliminate an undesputeable expert in the field who =
whether controversial or not offered us all a wealth of information =
Another note is that George clearly has an intolerance for arguments =
to his positions that are unsound or unproven by non experts in the =
field ands I personally always new that if George agreed I new that =
what I was hearing was safe. If George gave a negative response I =
consequently new that I had to seriously research the advice or =
viewpoint before figuring out whether it was based on fact or =
uninformed opinion. Frankly this gave me piece of mind.. I respect =
you. I think you should run for president:-) I think that you have an =
often times awkward position and I think you handle it very well. =
Does the examples of dangerous info have something to do with Georges =
Sushi bets? For the record Joel I think your alright .
Take care.....Hope to dive with you =
sometime.........................Alex
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:18:44 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #288024, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 2:12:20 PM
Subject: #287942-The Saga of George
From: Sue Kovach [FL] 73543,1117
To: JoeL Markwell (ATl) 73700,2054 (received)
Reply: #288091 (1 reply)
Joel --
<George posted: <<>>One of my buddies took his mother on a sneak dive =
in Sally Ward, a 300 foot
>>deep cave, on a single tank with a Y valve. She is not even scuba =
certified, ........>>
I stand corrected. I earlier said that to my knowledge, George had =
not ever given out information that might generally be construed as =
unsafe. I do recall seeing that posting and personally wondering why =
he was saying such a thing, after all his insistence on safety. It =
looked as though he thought there was nothing wrong with what his =
buddy did. In fact, I recall where he posted it. Someone asked for =
info on Mexican caves, and she got several responses that also =
reminded her to get proper training before entering a cave. George =
posted his message in response to one of those advising training.
Sue
Asst. Sysop
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:19:03 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #288091, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 5:21:14 PM
Subject: #288024-The Saga of George
From: JoeL Markwell (ATl) 73700,2054
To: Sue Kovach [FL] 73543,1117 (received)
Sue,
Yep! That's nor really safe, is it? I think George's desire to shock =
and dismay is not altogether compatible with the safety message.
JoeL
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:20:14 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287951, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 11:18:03 AM
Subject: #287685-The Saga of George
From: Rick The Sysop (IL) 76701,123
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #287981 (1 reply)
Please keep in mind he was not expelled because of the advice. It =
was due to his attitude. Yes, if you seriously threatened to hill or =
harm someone if you saw them, used every four letter word in the =
book, tossed in numerous personal insults, sent vulgar messages and =
e-mail, and replied to requests to tone it down with even worse =
messages, than you would be kicked off.
He is the FIRST person to eveer be expelled from the Forum.
Rick
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:20:23 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287981, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 12:24:07 PM
Subject: #287951-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Rick The Sysop (IL) 76701,123 (received)
Rick:
I accept the decision. I'm not happy about it but I will get =
over it. I think a method of voting on issues like this would be a =
good idea. Its like having a self interest group voting in behind =
closed door sessions deciding the politics and the fate of the =
collective individuals without giving a chance for an overall =
concensus. Truly the methodology of a true democracy. It would be =
easy to tabulate the pole electronically and where I assume this is a =
club it would feel alot better being a member with a voice.
Take care........................Alex
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:20:30 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #288516, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Sun, Mar 10, 1996 11:17:06 AM
Subject: #287685-The Saga of George
From: Tom Mount 102567,3457
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
Alex
I most likely argue with George more than anyone in tech diving. But =
we are also friends and dive together weel. Our difference in opnion =
borders on his assistance that there is only one way and one =
equipment config to dive safely on. he would have us all dive =
identical to each other. When config of equipment is taken into =
account body build, type of dive etc. can haver an impact.
I have added a new requirement into my courses where not only do I =
teach 4 equipment config concepts but I require students to =
experiment with at least two. A part of this includes long hose and =
short hose breathing. Both have advantageds and both have =
disadvantages. I alternate between the two.
So ther are numerous SAFE ways to do tech diving. The Hogarth system =
is definitely one of the safest. Componente of the hogarth should be =
featured in most config.
However type bc such as backplate vs transpack (or others) does not =
constitute more or less safety. They do affect comfort and drag. I =
feel there is a slight bit more drag with a trtanspack, but with a =
bad back the ability to get out of the water pain free more than =
offsets the slight difference in drag.
The point is there must be some individual flexiability in setting up =
equipment. However there are many definite no no's from a safety =
point of view than many tech diversd do violate and on this issue =
George and I agree 100%.
I always find it difficult in a free country when someone is censored =
on a public forum such as this , and feel that is really a violation =
of all of our rights. That is a worse violation of freedom than =
George's dogamatic approach to only one way, that although I disagree =
on some points with him it is a safe way. I hope to see him back on =
board
tom
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:20:48 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287763, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 9:07:17 PM
Subject: #287662-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457 (received)
Chris:
By the way I like Joel alot:-) I think he did a good job =
of saying he likes George but will leave it up to what others want to =
do. I think I'd like to elect him for President:-)........
What do you think? He is a true Diplomat, however we must keep in =
mind that lack of diplomacy or lack of congeniality or poor social =
interaction skills or not feeling that its important to cottle =
everyone your in contact with still isn't a crime. It should be put =
aside and ignored if its upsetting like a tv commercial or program =
that is found disturbing not censored by taking it off the air. Now =
there is a thought for solving the problem of irresponsible TV =
programing. Although I'm afraid there wouldn't be much to watch =
except nature shows but oh those animals are so violent :-) and I =
think there is another right that protects the stations......I think =
it has something to with that freedom of speech and expression thing. =
Maybe we could have all of the internet Forum Leaders help us get =
responsible TV programing now I'm for that! (Only kidding)..kinda =
......................Alex
I swear I'll let this issue go.................................I've =
said my peace......I think...but its tough Chris its still not =
right.......OK I'll shut up Let me know about your program will ya?
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:20:59 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #288105, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Fri, Mar 8, 1996 5:53:00 PM
Subject: #287662-The Saga of George
From: John Zumrick, MD 76022,2745
To: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457
Reply: #288423 (2 replies)
Chris:
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Georges abusive style on line is =
consistent just as he is a more agreable when met in person. A kind =
of Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde. What concerns me most is that his style =
may suppress others from interacting in the forum. One of the great =
potential powers of a forum such as this is to foster an atmosphere =
where divers will share their experiences, and provide topics for =
open and interesting discussion. I'm afraid that open attacks =
belittleing others will only hinder the development of such an =
atmosphere.
Some years ago Sheck Exley and I were involved in a dive where we got =
separated from another buddy in the team. The sharing of the =
circumstances of this incident and subsequent discussions provided a =
strong learning tool for others. I suspect that such openness and =
discussions will be compromised in an atmosphere such as George seems =
to foster.
John Zumrick
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:22:21 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #288509, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Sun, Mar 10, 1996 10:54:14 AM
Subject: #288105-The Saga of George
From: JoeL Markwell (ATl) 73700,2054
To: John Zumrick, MD 76022,2745
John,
You are absolutely right about the ambiance affecting potential =
interaction. I know for a fact that there a several very good cave =
divers on Cavers and Techdiver that just won't post because they =
don't want the garbage heaped on them that is inevitable since they =
are already on George's s--t list. I was/am on the list as well, but =
I have managed to reach a sort of truce (from time-to-time) with him. =
But it is regrettable that any of us have to feel like we may be =
savaged should _anything_ we say rub George the wrong way, OR if he's =
just in the mood to Flame.
JoeL
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:22:34 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287666, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 4:46:12 PM
Subject: #287644-The Saga of George
From: Bill Curnutte (OH) 76164,1674
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #287677 (1 reply)
Alex,
I can't comment on that because I'm not familiar with the politics on =
this forum. My reply to Sue was based only on what I saw going on =
publicly. I've already said all that I have to say and it looks like =
it PO'd Michael Dolle big time. I'm not here to start any more =
fights, so I'm outta here.
Regards.
Bill Curnutte
Portsmouth, Ohio
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:22:59 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287675, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 5:13:07 PM
Subject: #287644-The Saga of George
From: Rick The Sysop (IL) 76701,123
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #287691 (2 replies)
Not true. I did get a LOT of complaints about him. When I politely =
asked him to tone it down, his reply was unprofessional, childish, =
and obscene. He has a stack of chips a mile high on his shoulder, and =
thinks everyone else is so much dirt under his heels.
Rick
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:23:07 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287691, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 5:43:04 PM
Subject: #287675-The Saga of George
From: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507
To: Rick The Sysop (IL) 76701,123 (received)
Reply: #287742 (1 reply)
Rick:
Apparently 25 complaints was indeed inaccurate? If the =
online statistic was wrong then I guess I can't be blamed for my =
drawn conclusion based on the information. I'm happy that it wasn't =
an inaccurate statistic or information that I based a potentially =
dangerous dive on:-)
I've said all that I will, I just think the decision =
stinks. And I want to get on with diving and getting along with =
fellow online divers. I just hope that I'm not the next targetted for =
banishment for expressing my views. I'll miss George Like it or =
not.................................Alex
=80---- old Beer Nav, 3/10/96, 7:23:20 PM, Scuba Forum ----=80
=B6FB=B6MF
Message: #287742, S/6 Cave\Wreck\Cavern
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 1996 8:00:18 PM
Subject: #287691-The Saga of George
From: Chris Parrett (CO) 72233,457
To: Alexander L. Paul 73771,507 (received)
Reply: #287753 (1 reply)
Alex:
<< I'll miss George Like it or =
not.................................Alex>>
have you subscribed to TechDiver yet?
If not, by all means do so at once.
You will suffer NO lack of George's thoughs on all subjects SCUBA.
Chris Parrett
President, Abysmal Diving Inc.
Abyss, Advanced Dive Planning Software.
The Ultimate Dive Software.
http://www.emi.net/gulfstream/abyss/abyss.html
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