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         Gentlemen (the ladies hae all unsubscribed except for the Chamber 
Queen), I have to ammend my butt light comments. Those who bought square lights 
and other claptrappery are not the strokes, it is the dive instructors who sold 
the on it who are the problem. 

         Dive gear is expensive, and to have wasted money on goofy lights or 
unnecessary computers , or other things that do not work is a real crime, and
we 
all know who the perpetrators are.

         The correct thing to do is to sell this stuff back to these guys, and 
eventually get the good stuff, as anyone learning their way will not need any 
real gear anyhow.

         Let's concentrate on what we need to get, not what we already know is 
bullshit. Also, rather than argue about who is a stroke, let's talk about how
to 
do it better and safer, and just forget analyzing the wrong way.

         We are not going to help the dumb red necks - you can't fix stupid. We 
are going to save the newer guys a ton of money, and make this sport much more 
enjoyable for them, and this will translate into real gains in dive safety.

          Next time we hear one of these guys tell uys about his 8500 cave
dives 
(in the case of the person there, that would be 1.16 dives per day for the 
twenty years he said he had been cave-diving, or in Tom's case with his 10.000 
cave dives, that would be an equally impossible schedule) , ask these guys
who's 
got the end of the line, who does the exploration, who hits the most diffiuclt 
wrecks with ease, and who is getting the job done.

          Ask what rebreather Rod Farb uses, a real diver with a real track 
record and real results, or what scooter Bill Gavin uses, or what light Bill 
Main uses, or what backup lights I use , or what harness Jarrod uses, or what 
gases WKPP dives, or what fins Casey McKinlay uses, or what drysuit we use, or 
what regulators you can depend on 6500 feet back at 300 feet deep, rather than 
believing somebody who could not run 6500 feet on dry ground, or has never put 
his life where his mouth is, but is perfectly willing to tell you where to put 
yours.

    - George Irvine

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