Ray, once one makes the quantum leap into realizing that most thinking in
cave diving outside of the WKPP and GUE is based on hand me down
congenitally ignorant goobery ( a realization that I had the first day I
walked into "cave country"), one can move on to doing things in a manner
that makes sense to those of us for whom a trailer is something you see on
the back of a semi truck.

These guys will all fade out one day when they can't make as much money
teaching diving as they used to make at the 7 -11 due to their cockroach
like numbers, and the real deal will take over, if indeed cave diving is
still legal by then.



-----Original Message-----
From: RLatulip@ao*.co* [mailto:RLatulip@ao*.co*]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 10:58 AM
To: trey@ne*.co*; kelafant@we*.co*; lcarlson@n-*.co*;
ScottBonis@ao*.co*; swhac@pc*.gu*.ne*; SDPCave@ao*.co*
Cc: cavers@cavers.com
Subject: Re: cave lines


Geoff, having just come back from Mexico some of the lines STILL start out
of
the light zone.

If lines had been run to the light zone there would be two less dead divers
in Myan Blue today.
Was the line being cut back worth their lives?

And yes Jail House goes out to the tree because Steve and I ran it to a tie
off several
years back when we exited their after starting out at Cenote of the Sun. It
didn't originally go to
the tree in the cenote but Jail House is such a mud hole to exit from you
can't see shit
if you wanted to head back in so we tied it off on a tree in the Cenote.

Ray.

P.S. George I saw your and Lamar's marker 5 years back in a salt water
tunnel
off of
Cenote of The Sun.  That is a nice traverse dive and a very pretty tunnel.

In a message dated 10/19/2000 4:16:11 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
trey@ne*.co* writes:

> BULL   SHIT  - you officious big time cave divers are so concerned with
> bullshit it amazes me. IF an o/w diver gets into a cave, he has a lot
better
> chance of getting out with a line , genius, than without.
>
> The FACT is that if you came from Maya and hit Naharone, like I did the
> first time I dove Maya with Lamar English, you can't get out. We could not
> find the entrance with the reels we were carrying. That really pissed me
off
> that some officious asshole cut that thing back 400 FEET!!!!
>
> Then tell us about when those morons had Maya cut back so far that the two
> guys who went in on a "guided dive" through one of the other two entrances
> in that sink could not find the way out when they got on the MAIN LINE
> ??????
>
> Just how stupid are you Geoff? Maybe you could come give me a cave diving
> lesson so I will understand. You know what I love about Leon Sinks - none
of
> the cave diving horseshit applies there. I run the lines to the air.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Kelafant [mailto:kelafant@we*.co*]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 10:03 PM
> To: lcarlson@n-*.co*; ScottBonis@ao*.co*; swhac@pc*.gu*.ne*
> Cc: cavers@cavers.com
> Subject: Re: cave lines
>
>
> Hold on a second.  How many lines are we talking about anyway?
>
> Naharon is quite a run but anybody with half a brain can find it.  As for
> the rest of the system, the A line starts in daylight and the beginning of
> the B line can be free dived.  Cenote of the Sun is no more than 10 feet
and
> Jailhouse is tied on land.  Even the Dead Zone is in daylight.
>
> Carwash starts way back but is not really a problem.
>
> Gran Cenotes main line is just off the cavern line, a big yellow thing
that
> is hard to miss.
>
> The first trip I ever made to Mexico was without a guide or even someone
who
> really knew where they were going and I had no problem finding the line in
> any of the above three systems
>
> Taj Mahal, Minotauro, Actun Co, Calimba, Temple of Doom, Dos Ojos, Ox Bel
> Ha, Nohoch, Hilarios Well, Chac Mool, Ponderosa (well don't dive it now),
> Vaca Ha, Tortuga, Ak Tulum, and many others are all easy.  George and his
> friends even left the line for Calavera tied to a root out of the water.
Of
> course if you have no idea where you are going even a 25 foot run can be a
> nightmare, can't it?
>
> I think your characterization of "lines ... cut back so deep" is really
over
> the top.  If you only go to Carwash, Naharon and Gran Cenote, one would
> think you would have broken the code by now.
>
> It is entirely possible and pleasurable to dive without a guide in Mexico
as
> many on this list have done.  But you at least need to find somebody to
tell
> you where to go.
>
> Oh.. there are some really good guides down in Mexico and some really good
> guides from the States that take groups down frequently.  If you feel
you're
> being cheated, maybe your time and money would be better spent finding
> someone who really knows the systems and making a few dives with them
rather
> than looking for the start of the permanent line as you leave the Cancun
> airport.  You shouldn't really cast aspersions on all of them just because
> there are more than a few moronic jerks claiming to be guides.
>
> Geoff Kelafant
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lance Carlson" <lcarlson@n-*.co*>
> To: <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>; <swhac@pc*.gu*.ne*>
> Cc: <cavers@cavers.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:15 PM
> Subject: RE: cave lines
>
>
> > However,
> >
> > I've often wondered why it is that the lines in mexico are cut back so
> deep
> > (some in excess of a full primary reel).  Can you explain the value of
> this
> > other than keeping guides employed down there?  Make it known that I
have
> > no qualms about running reel up to say 250' in or so but beyond that I
> > question motive?  Observation: Florida, lines too near entrance (read,
put
> > LR back where it belongs).  Mexico, lines too far.  How many people dive
> on
> > their own in mexico (sans guide) vs in Florida?  I bet you the single
most
> > compelling reason is locating the main line.  By the way, I am aware of
> the
> > cavern dives there and maybe the answer lies in the fact that some
> 'cavern'
> > dives in Mexico are actually 'Cave' dives and the buck wins again.
> >
> > Lance
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ScottBonis@ao*.co* [SMTP:ScottBonis@ao*.co*]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:33 PM
> > To: swhac@pc*.gu*.ne*
> > Cc: cavers@cavers.com; John E. Ivanic
> > Subject: Re: cave lines
> >
> > In a message dated 10/18/2000 10:26:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
> > swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* writes:
> >
> > << ... That line was only moved because the instructors in the
community
> do
> > not want to take the time, and need to pass students that can't, to
teach
> > people how to run a reel... >>
> >
> >
> > Hi Scott,
> >
> > I teach in Yucatan and have not done much diving in Florida, but I find
it
> > almost inconceivable that any cave instructor for any agency would
> actually
> > pass a cave student who wasn't fully capable of running a reel.
> >
> > Is that what you're saying?  Do you have any examples of this?  To me
this
> > would be equivalent to giving a loaded gun with a hair trigger and the
> > safety
> > off, to a five year old and saying "Here, play with this!"
> >
> > Take care and dive safe,        Scott
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 10/18/2000 10:26:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
> > swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* writes:
> >
> > Subj:    Re: cave lines
> > Date:   10/18/2000 10:26:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time
> > From:   swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* (Scott Hunsucker)
> > To: ivanic@di*.ne* (John E. Ivanic), cavers@cavers.com
> > (cavers@cavers.com)
> >
> >     Why should someone be hung out to dry because they removed a
geriatric
> > sized unneeded arrow?  What purpose did that oversize piece of plastic
> > serve?  If normal arrows work in every other cave in the world, what
makes
> > Little River so damn special has to merit a different arrow?  Little
River
> > is just a cave like every other cave in this state, it is not sacred nor
> > special.  That large arrow was nothing more than cave trash.  What is
> next,
> > giant arrows at every split in every cave for every diver that can't
> either
> > read a map or posses the cognitive ability to navigate?
> >     Depending on where the line in question was I might agree with you.
> If
> > they cut back the main line away from the entrance, back to where it
used
> > to be, then that is great.  That line was only moved because the
> > instructors in the community do not want to take the time, and need to
> pass
> > students that can't, to teach people how to run a reel.  The same thing
> > happened in Peacock, laziness and complacency on the half of the
> instructor
> > should not equal less work for the student, it does but it should not.
If
> > the line was removed from somewhere in the cave that might be a
different
> > story.
> > Scott Hunsucker
> >
> > At 09:57 AM 10/18/00 -0400, John E. Ivanic wrote:
> > >I heard that someone removed some line out of little river, and also
> > >stole the large arrow at the serpentine, is this true? The person
> > >resposible should be hung out to dry.
> > >
> > >John
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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> From: trey@ne*.co* (Trey)
> To: "Geoff Kelafant" <kelafant@we*.co*>, <lcarlson@n-*.co*>,
>         <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>, <swhac@pc*.gu*.ne*>
> Cc: <cavers@cavers.com>
> Subject: RE: cave lines
> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 06:13:31 -0400
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