Mailing List Archive Mailing List Archive
Sometimes I learn so much from this list <g>. From the discussion so far, I've learned that a guideline is a mysterious, inanimate object capable of forcing divers into creating poor dive plans, inspiring poor dive technique and execution, and killing divers. Guidelines too close/too far from the entrance, with not enough/too many line arrows, or with line arrows which are too big/too small are to be regarded with suspicion. Geoff Kelafant ----- Original Message ----- From: <RLatulip@ao*.co*> To: <trey@ne*.co*>; <kelafant@we*.co*>; <lcarlson@n-*.co*>; <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>; <swhac@pc*.gu*.ne*>; <SDPCave@ao*.co*> Cc: <cavers@cavers.com> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 9:57 AM Subject: Re: cave lines > Geoff, having just come back from Mexico some of the lines STILL start out of > the light zone. > > If lines had been run to the light zone there would be two less dead divers > in Myan Blue today. > Was the line being cut back worth their lives? > > And yes Jail House goes out to the tree because Steve and I ran it to a tie > off several > years back when we exited their after starting out at Cenote of the Sun. It > didn't originally go to > the tree in the cenote but Jail House is such a mud hole to exit from you > can't see shit > if you wanted to head back in so we tied it off on a tree in the Cenote. > > Ray. > > P.S. George I saw your and Lamar's marker 5 years back in a salt water tunnel > off of > Cenote of The Sun. That is a nice traverse dive and a very pretty tunnel. > > In a message dated 10/19/2000 4:16:11 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > trey@ne*.co* writes: > > > BULL SHIT - you officious big time cave divers are so concerned with > > bullshit it amazes me. IF an o/w diver gets into a cave, he has a lot better > > chance of getting out with a line , genius, than without. > > > > The FACT is that if you came from Maya and hit Naharone, like I did the > > first time I dove Maya with Lamar English, you can't get out. We could not > > find the entrance with the reels we were carrying. That really pissed me off > > that some officious asshole cut that thing back 400 FEET!!!! > > > > Then tell us about when those morons had Maya cut back so far that the two > > guys who went in on a "guided dive" through one of the other two entrances > > in that sink could not find the way out when they got on the MAIN LINE > > ?????? > > > > Just how stupid are you Geoff? Maybe you could come give me a cave diving > > lesson so I will understand. You know what I love about Leon Sinks - none of > > the cave diving horseshit applies there. I run the lines to the air. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Geoff Kelafant [mailto:kelafant@we*.co*] > > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 10:03 PM > > To: lcarlson@n-*.co*; ScottBonis@ao*.co*; swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* > > Cc: cavers@cavers.com > > Subject: Re: cave lines > > > > > > Hold on a second. How many lines are we talking about anyway? > > > > Naharon is quite a run but anybody with half a brain can find it. As for > > the rest of the system, the A line starts in daylight and the beginning of > > the B line can be free dived. Cenote of the Sun is no more than 10 feet and > > Jailhouse is tied on land. Even the Dead Zone is in daylight. > > > > Carwash starts way back but is not really a problem. > > > > Gran Cenotes main line is just off the cavern line, a big yellow thing that > > is hard to miss. > > > > The first trip I ever made to Mexico was without a guide or even someone who > > really knew where they were going and I had no problem finding the line in > > any of the above three systems > > > > Taj Mahal, Minotauro, Actun Co, Calimba, Temple of Doom, Dos Ojos, Ox Bel > > Ha, Nohoch, Hilarios Well, Chac Mool, Ponderosa (well don't dive it now), > > Vaca Ha, Tortuga, Ak Tulum, and many others are all easy. George and his > > friends even left the line for Calavera tied to a root out of the water. Of > > course if you have no idea where you are going even a 25 foot run can be a > > nightmare, can't it? > > > > I think your characterization of "lines ... cut back so deep" is really over > > the top. If you only go to Carwash, Naharon and Gran Cenote, one would > > think you would have broken the code by now. > > > > It is entirely possible and pleasurable to dive without a guide in Mexico as > > many on this list have done. But you at least need to find somebody to tell > > you where to go. > > > > Oh.. there are some really good guides down in Mexico and some really good > > guides from the States that take groups down frequently. If you feel you're > > being cheated, maybe your time and money would be better spent finding > > someone who really knows the systems and making a few dives with them rather > > than looking for the start of the permanent line as you leave the Cancun > > airport. You shouldn't really cast aspersions on all of them just because > > there are more than a few moronic jerks claiming to be guides. > > > > Geoff Kelafant > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lance Carlson" <lcarlson@n-*.co*> > > To: <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>; <swhac@pc*.gu*.ne*> > > Cc: <cavers@cavers.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:15 PM > > Subject: RE: cave lines > > > > > > > However, > > > > > > I've often wondered why it is that the lines in mexico are cut back so > > deep > > > (some in excess of a full primary reel). Can you explain the value of > > this > > > other than keeping guides employed down there? Make it known that I have > > > no qualms about running reel up to say 250' in or so but beyond that I > > > question motive? Observation: Florida, lines too near entrance (read, put > > > LR back where it belongs). Mexico, lines too far. How many people dive > > on > > > their own in mexico (sans guide) vs in Florida? I bet you the single most > > > compelling reason is locating the main line. By the way, I am aware of > > the > > > cavern dives there and maybe the answer lies in the fact that some > > 'cavern' > > > dives in Mexico are actually 'Cave' dives and the buck wins again. > > > > > > Lance > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ScottBonis@ao*.co* [SMTP:ScottBonis@ao*.co*] > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:33 PM > > > To: swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* > > > Cc: cavers@cavers.com; John E. Ivanic > > > Subject: Re: cave lines > > > > > > In a message dated 10/18/2000 10:26:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > > > swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* writes: > > > > > > << ... That line was only moved because the instructors in the community > > do > > > not want to take the time, and need to pass students that can't, to teach > > > people how to run a reel... >> > > > > > > > > > Hi Scott, > > > > > > I teach in Yucatan and have not done much diving in Florida, but I find it > > > almost inconceivable that any cave instructor for any agency would > > actually > > > pass a cave student who wasn't fully capable of running a reel. > > > > > > Is that what you're saying? Do you have any examples of this? To me this > > > would be equivalent to giving a loaded gun with a hair trigger and the > > > safety > > > off, to a five year old and saying "Here, play with this!" > > > > > > Take care and dive safe, Scott > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/18/2000 10:26:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > > > swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* writes: > > > > > > Subj: Re: cave lines > > > Date: 10/18/2000 10:26:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time > > > From: swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* (Scott Hunsucker) > > > To: ivanic@di*.ne* (John E. Ivanic), cavers@cavers.com > > > (cavers@cavers.com) > > > > > > Why should someone be hung out to dry because they removed a geriatric > > > sized unneeded arrow? What purpose did that oversize piece of plastic > > > serve? If normal arrows work in every other cave in the world, what makes > > > Little River so damn special has to merit a different arrow? Little River > > > is just a cave like every other cave in this state, it is not sacred nor > > > special. That large arrow was nothing more than cave trash. What is > > next, > > > giant arrows at every split in every cave for every diver that can't > > either > > > read a map or posses the cognitive ability to navigate? > > > Depending on where the line in question was I might agree with you. > > If > > > they cut back the main line away from the entrance, back to where it used > > > to be, then that is great. That line was only moved because the > > > instructors in the community do not want to take the time, and need to > > pass > > > students that can't, to teach people how to run a reel. The same thing > > > happened in Peacock, laziness and complacency on the half of the > > instructor > > > should not equal less work for the student, it does but it should not. If > > > the line was removed from somewhere in the cave that might be a different > > > story. > > > Scott Hunsucker > > > > > > At 09:57 AM 10/18/00 -0400, John E. Ivanic wrote: > > > >I heard that someone removed some line out of little river, and also > > > >stole the large arrow at the serpentine, is this true? The person > > > >resposible should be hung out to dry. > > > > > > > >John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > > Return-Path: <trey@ne*.co*> > > Received: from rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (rly-yc04.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.36]) > > by air-yc03.mail.aol.com (v76_r1.8) with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 06:16:11 > > -0400 > > Received: from zen.kr.com (kr.com [204.96.46.12]) by rly-yc04.mx.aol.com > > (v76_r1.19) with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 06:15:50 -0400 > > Received: from ns.netdor.com (ns.netdor.com [209.203.201.3]) > > by zen.kr.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA16731 > > for <cavers@cavers.com>; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 07:07:09 -0400 (EDT) > > Received: from vaio ([209.203.202.35]) by ns.netdor.com > > (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) > > with SMTP id com; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 06:10:16 -0400 > > From: trey@ne*.co* (Trey) > > To: "Geoff Kelafant" <kelafant@we*.co*>, <lcarlson@n-*.co*>, > > <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>, <swhac@pc*.gu*.ne*> > > Cc: <cavers@cavers.com> > > Subject: RE: cave lines > > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 06:13:31 -0400 > > Message-ID: <MABBKNLDLNNBFCMCJFMDCEHHCAAA.trey@ne*.co*> > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Priority: 3 (Normal) > > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) > > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 > > Importance: Normal > > In-Reply-To: <008701c03970$bd8f9d40$7430a8c0@ne*.rr*.ne*> > > > > > > > >
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