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How about you hold on buckooo... >Carwash starts way back but is not really a problem. when did I say it was a problem? I asked what the intended purpose was and got no answer to that question just some Bullshit about: >rather than looking for the start of the permanent line as you leave the Cancun airport. Funny, last time I left airport at 10:30 am and got 5 1/2 hrs bottom time in that day (can I count the line-following from cancun?) >You shouldn't really cast aspersions on all of them just because there are more than a few moronic jerks claiming to be guides. Did I make any assertions to all guides ability or are you reading into things too much? Actually, I dove with Kate Lewis in April and was very happy with her abilities as a guide and a diver........kind of dispells your statement above, huh? >It is entirely possible and pleasurable to dive without a guide in Mexico as many on this list have done. But you at least need to find somebody to tell you where to go. Smoked again.........the signs to most will smack you in the face going down the highway or even on road to Coba, Mexican Cave diving gone commercial.....check out new sign at Vaca Ha. And Steve's new book lays it all out for you even to the exact tenth of a kilometer (pick up a copy) >Naharon is quite a run but anybody with half a brain can find it. who is talking about ability to find a line........point was/is..... what is the point in cutting it back beyond cavern zone/tour area plus a bit Is the locker room, my penis is bigger than your's crap really necessary or are you some Neanderthal Cromagnan man with large orbital lobes as to make the rest of us look like '1/2 brains' and are just itching to tell the world about it? > one would think you would have broken the code by now. No there really is no code.....cave diving isn't mysterious, isn't dangerous when approached with correct attitude and equipment, and isn't rocket science and since you bring up George, read his post on the matter. >even a 25 foot run can be a nightmare, Tell me again why any dive would be a 'nightmare'.......take your butt to fla, talk to JJ,Ted, Tyler, Berman etc and get them to GUE/DIR you so that you no longer have these 'nightmares' (after all it is as much about attitude as about gear...lots of guys can by the gear and talk the talk, fewer can make that walk) >The first trip I ever made to Mexico was without a guide or even someone who really knew where they were going and I had no problem finding the line in any of the above three systems Again, answer the question......what is the purpose? >Oh.. there are some really good guides down in Mexico and some really good guides from the States that take groups down frequently. If you feel you're being cheated, maybe your time and money would be better spent finding someone who really knows the systems and making a few dives with them rather than looking for the start of the permanent line Yeah, there are some good guides and funny thing is that after a day of guided cavern and cave tours I have some of them ask to 'tag along' (read they are not my guide, they are going to have fun diving with me) at night. I am not being cheated, never said that......have your nightmares really just been a symptom of dimentia? Geoff, Typically I am a nice guy and don't get into this crap except when someone responds to an 'unloaded' question in a half cocked manner like you did. I only was interested in what the reasoning was as my feable 1/2 brain couldn't figure it out. Lance Carlson -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Kelafant [SMTP:kelafant@we*.co*] Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 9:03 PM To: lcarlson@n-*.co*; ScottBonis@ao*.co*; swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* Cc: cavers@cavers.com Subject: Re: cave lines Hold on a second. How many lines are we talking about anyway? Naharon is quite a run but anybody with half a brain can find it. As for the rest of the system, the A line starts in daylight and the beginning of the B line can be free dived. Cenote of the Sun is no more than 10 feet and Jailhouse is tied on land. Even the Dead Zone is in daylight. Carwash starts way back but is not really a problem. Gran Cenotes main line is just off the cavern line, a big yellow thing that is hard to miss. The first trip I ever made to Mexico was without a guide or even someone who really knew where they were going and I had no problem finding the line in any of the above three systems Taj Mahal, Minotauro, Actun Co, Calimba, Temple of Doom, Dos Ojos, Ox Bel Ha, Nohoch, Hilarios Well, Chac Mool, Ponderosa (well don't dive it now), Vaca Ha, Tortuga, Ak Tulum, and many others are all easy. George and his friends even left the line for Calavera tied to a root out of the water. Of course if you have no idea where you are going even a 25 foot run can be a nightmare, can't it? I think your characterization of "lines ... cut back so deep" is really over the top. If you only go to Carwash, Naharon and Gran Cenote, one would think you would have broken the code by now. It is entirely possible and pleasurable to dive without a guide in Mexico as many on this list have done. But you at least need to find somebody to tell you where to go. Oh.. there are some really good guides down in Mexico and some really good guides from the States that take groups down frequently. If you feel you're being cheated, maybe your time and money would be better spent finding someone who really knows the systems and making a few dives with them rather than looking for the start of the permanent line as you leave the Cancun airport. You shouldn't really cast aspersions on all of them just because there are more than a few moronic jerks claiming to be guides. Geoff Kelafant ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lance Carlson" <lcarlson@n-*.co*> To: <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>; <swhac@pc*.gu*.ne*> Cc: <cavers@cavers.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:15 PM Subject: RE: cave lines > However, > > I've often wondered why it is that the lines in mexico are cut back so deep > (some in excess of a full primary reel). Can you explain the value of this > other than keeping guides employed down there? Make it known that I have > no qualms about running reel up to say 250' in or so but beyond that I > question motive? Observation: Florida, lines too near entrance (read, put > LR back where it belongs). Mexico, lines too far. How many people dive on > their own in mexico (sans guide) vs in Florida? I bet you the single most > compelling reason is locating the main line. By the way, I am aware of the > cavern dives there and maybe the answer lies in the fact that some 'cavern' > dives in Mexico are actually 'Cave' dives and the buck wins again. > > Lance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ScottBonis@ao*.co* [SMTP:ScottBonis@ao*.co*] > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:33 PM > To: swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* > Cc: cavers@cavers.com; John E. Ivanic > Subject: Re: cave lines > > In a message dated 10/18/2000 10:26:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* writes: > > << ... That line was only moved because the instructors in the community do > not want to take the time, and need to pass students that can't, to teach > people how to run a reel... >> > > > Hi Scott, > > I teach in Yucatan and have not done much diving in Florida, but I find it > almost inconceivable that any cave instructor for any agency would actually > pass a cave student who wasn't fully capable of running a reel. > > Is that what you're saying? Do you have any examples of this? To me this > would be equivalent to giving a loaded gun with a hair trigger and the > safety > off, to a five year old and saying "Here, play with this!" > > Take care and dive safe, Scott > > > In a message dated 10/18/2000 10:26:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* writes: > > Subj: Re: cave lines > Date: 10/18/2000 10:26:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time > From: swhac@pc*.gu*.ne* (Scott Hunsucker) > To: ivanic@di*.ne* (John E. Ivanic), cavers@cavers.com > (cavers@cavers.com) > > Why should someone be hung out to dry because they removed a geriatric > sized unneeded arrow? What purpose did that oversize piece of plastic > serve? If normal arrows work in every other cave in the world, what makes > Little River so damn special has to merit a different arrow? Little River > is just a cave like every other cave in this state, it is not sacred nor > special. That large arrow was nothing more than cave trash. What is next, > giant arrows at every split in every cave for every diver that can't either > read a map or posses the cognitive ability to navigate? > Depending on where the line in question was I might agree with you. If > they cut back the main line away from the entrance, back to where it used > to be, then that is great. That line was only moved because the > instructors in the community do not want to take the time, and need to pass > students that can't, to teach people how to run a reel. The same thing > happened in Peacock, laziness and complacency on the half of the instructor > should not equal less work for the student, it does but it should not. If > the line was removed from somewhere in the cave that might be a different > story. > Scott Hunsucker > > At 09:57 AM 10/18/00 -0400, John E. Ivanic wrote: > >I heard that someone removed some line out of little river, and also > >stole the large arrow at the serpentine, is this true? The person > >resposible should be hung out to dry. > > > >John > >
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