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Hi JT, Scott, Trey, and Skip, Thanks for giving me your opinions. The information you conveyed was not what I wanted to hear, but I regard it highly. I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I'm really not stupid either. And I think I can hear what you are trying to say. It's a little like my wife, Karen, saying to me "Don't tell me you forgot to roll up the car windows before the rain storm," my answering "I forgot" and her saying "I told you not to tell me that." I thought I had a good idea, so I followed up on it a little bit and it seemed like it might work. But before I got too far, I figured I ought to get some opinions on the practicality of the idea from some folks who knew a hell of a lot more about scootering in caves than I do. So I put out a message on these lists. Strangely enough, the answers I received reminded me of a short poem I learned over forty years ago when I was taking Driver's Ed. in high school. Here lies the body of Jonathan Gray, who died while defending the right of way. He was right, dead right as he sped along, but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong. I asked for opinions from the list to avoid exactly the kind of mistake that can lead to "Big trouble in little China." That's why we're having this discussion. As an engineer, I have no qualms about being able to modify the face plate of a Mako to accomplish my objectives. But this discussion is not purely about technical specifications. It is about the experience that has kept people alive in far more demanding situations than the one in which I will be participating. 5,000 feet back in a cave at a 75 foot depth may be a serious situation to me, but it is not nearly as extreme as the WKPP dives. So I would be a fool not to STFD, STFU and listen. I'm not trying to prove anything here, just trying to get my head screwed on right. To JT, I accept your concern. Unfortunately getting one Gavin would do me little good as I also need one for my buddy. And not having a sponsor, an extra $6,000 to $7,000 does not seem to be in my budget at this time. So I guess I'll need to find another way of handling the situation. To Scott Landon, I can really hear your concern. "Wha you oow yaw m_i_i_i_nd?" is a pretty strong statement when it comes from someone with the experience to back it up. To George, I remember our conversation about scootering protocol, which I appreciated greatly. But as I recall, we talked mainly about where and how many stage tanks needed to be staged, rather than battery life capacity or modifying Makos. I have a stage tank plan based on that conversation. And obviously I don't think I'm stretching things too far to say that it seems you agree with Landon's comment. To Skip, Your comments were by far the most poignant. You make your points in a concise and extremely powerful manner. I can see that you are obviously right. Finally, to all of you, Thank you sincerely for your caring. I certainly do not have a death wish and have no intention of letting my ignorance or my ego drive me into an unacceptably dangerous situation. On these lists in the last few weeks, we have clearly seen what can happen when a diver, even an expert diver, refuses to listen to the wisdom and insight that is available here. That is what I call just plain dumb. And I ain't that dumb. I guess this Idea will get put back on the shelf along with the other engineering ideas (such as gas switching blocks with "convenient" handles, high pressure hose manifolds and double handle tank valves) which may work technically, but are not smart. And right now I am starting work on an alternate "Plan B." In this case, these lists may just have accomplished one of their objectives in helping to prevent what could easily have been a rather serious accident. Thank you all, Scott In a message dated 8/12/00 2:00:13 PM, odyssey@at*.mi*.co* writes: << Scott, Do yourself a favor and start using a better scooter. Remember your life may depend on your scooter's ability to get you out. The way I see it, your already pushing beyond the safety limits of your scooter. You have three choices: 1: Get a new Gavin scooter with lots of burn. (Contact George @ trey@ne*.co*). Tow your Mako behind you as a backup. 2: Get a used gavin. Tow your Mako behind you as a backup. 3: Get another Mako (each diver) and tow one behind you. In this case the second scooter would not be considered a TRUE backup since your too far into your burn. A backup should be able to get you out from max. penetration or the next scooter depot with margin. Don't compromise what is already a poor and fragile design of the Mako by introducing additional failure points. Any additional connections into the scooter would be potential leak areas along with the ridiculous cable routing problems, buoyancy problems, fluid drag and snag points your adding. Just trying to envision what your dreaming up is making me cringe with fear. My recommendation is do option 1 and do it right or not at all. No cave is worth dieing for. - JT At 03:28 PM 8/12/2000 EDT, ScottBonis@ao*.co* wrote: >Hi Guys, >I'm looking for experience or opinions on an idea before I take off half >cocked and possibly do something dumb. >In exploring new a cave, it looks like my buddy and I may be overreaching the >limits of the battery capacity of the Mako's we'll be using. I'm thinking of >using a 3/4 inch aluminum plate in the nose of the scooters so we can drill >and tap holes for water tight electrical pass throughs. The wires from the >motor and the battery would be brought outside the scooter body and connected >together with a wet mate connector. >This is so when the battery gets too low, I could hook the batteries from a >light canister onto the motor and keep on going. The motor is set for 24 >volts and I could easily wire the two batteries in a waist canister in >series. The Mako batteries are 17 Amp-hours @ 24 volts and each waist >canister would be an additional 7 Amp-hours @ 24 volts. >Any thoughts? >Thanks for your time. Take care and safe diving, Scott >> In a message dated 8/12/00 4:17:23 PM, js_landon@ho*.co* writes: << somebody please tell me that this is a fake. >> In a message dated 8/12/00 5:08:33 PM, trey@ne*.co* writes: << Landon, Bonis is an example of a smart person who is seeing nothing but dumb fuckery out of the morons in the cave diving community. I already posted the scooter protocol and had a conversation with him about it. Landon, remember we had to add you as a training director for the WKPP due to the overload on JJ trying to retrain people from the abject stupidity taught by the strokes. >> In a message dated 8/12/00 7:57:28 PM, skipmac@co*.co* writes: << Really bad idea. Ask the question this way. I am going on a mission where a mistake can kill me. One of the critical pieces of equipment (read life support equipment) I am using is not good enough so I want to make a jury rigged modification that will add a significant new failure point. This will allow me to use this critical piece of equipment even further than it's design limits and place me further into a potentially deadly situation. Sorry to sound so dramatic, but others have said that there is nothing to see in a cave worth dying for and I think what you propose with the Mako is raising the risk factor to an unacceptable level. I used a Mako for quite a while before buying a Gavin (as have a number of friends) and have found that they are prone to leaks already. Poking holes in a case that is pretty flexible and somewhat fragile is asking for trouble. If you are reaching the limits of the Mako I would guess you are at least 4000 back in the cave. If you flood the Mako are you carrying enough gas to swim out from there or leaving safety tanks to get you out if the scooter fails? This is not what you want to hear, but if you have reached the limits of the Mako then you need to spend the money to get a better scooter. Don't risk your life because you don't have the money to buy the right gear for the job. Safe Diving Skip >>
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