At 02:59 PM 4/7/2000 -0400, Dan L. Volker wrote:
>`35 ml /kg of body weight is average for a college aged person who is
>physically active in sports, but not in any elite category. The same aged
>nerd who lays on the couch and watches TV may average 25 ml/kg, provided he
>is not a HFS.


All right , now haow about the average 35 year old male ?



>Guys like George are around 50 ml/kg
>
>Elite, Olympic level cross country skiers average the highest, with around
>70-75 ml/kg of body weight.
>
>A guy with a body fat over 30%, particularly if sedentary, would be
>fortunate to reach 10 or 15 ml/kg.
>
>VO2 max will predict the physical exertion potential of a diver, and the
>existence of a high VO2 max will correlate to an increased ability to off
>gas in deco---not by the VO2 max itself, but by the peripheral adaptations
>which the training created---the training led to the high VO2 max.

" the trianing" you mean physical trianing , ie arobic trianiing , whight
trianing , a cross between both. I was in the best shape during Tee Kwon DO
two/three times a week , instructer was of the old school , and would only
had out belts when you met his high standards. I remeber my my first week
there. Only got half way throught. Like I sad , old school . unfutunaly  I
got hurt , and then made matters worst , couple moth later.
Doc has now told me to stop all till I heal up.

I will say the trianiing made a real big diffeence in gas consuption.  Real
big diffreence.


>Dan
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Samy Elashmawy [mailto:samelash@ix*.ne*.co*]
>Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 5:28 AM
>To: Dan L. Volker; trey@ne*.co*; 'Geoff Kelafant'
>Cc: 'Tom Mount'; 'Mike Bruic'; cavers@cavers.com
>Subject: RE: Madison diving
>
>
>At 04:37 PM 4/6/2000 -0400, Dan L. Volker wrote:
>>Sounds like a good time to discuss MANDATORY VO2 Max testing, with
>
>Would you be kind enough to explian what there are , and where they are on
>the scale relative to the average person ? No flaming , I am genuanly
>interested .
>
>Volker ? didn't we have a dive fitness discussion ?
>
>>instructor minimums around 30 ml/kg of body weight.
>>Sure the test would be a cost and a time problem for some, but when these
>>instructors are "Responsible" for the lives they lead into a cave, this is
>>the least they can do to certify a likelihood they will be still be alive
>to
>>lead the students back after each dive. From what I have heard about
>>Rennaker, it sounds like he would be closer to 5 or 10 ml./kg if he had no
>>heart condition, and now that he has had an incident ( even though
>>supposedly fixed) , he may be lower still.
>>
>>Dan Volker
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]
>>Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 3:41 PM
>>To: Geoff Kelafant
>>Cc: Tom Mount; Mike Bruic; cavers@cavers.com
>>Subject: Re: Madison diving
>>
>>
>>Geoff, good points, obvoiusly Bruic is dead right and standing up for
>>it, and Tom is dead wrong and once again proving it.
>>
>>
>>Geoff Kelafant wrote:
>>>
>>> What absurdity.  "Right to work", ADA and all that other stuff doesn't
>>apply
>>> if someone isn't otherwise qualified for the job in particular.
>Actually,
>>> since none of the instructors really "work" for IANTD/CDS etc. anyway, I
>>> don't think any of this really applies.
>>>
>>> If it did, you would need to provide the examining physician with a
>>detailed
>>> description of what his "job" actually was and what the physical demands
>>> are.  In this case the physician should be someone well versed in diving
>>> medicine and the particular physical demands involved, not some guy who
>is
>>> getting the wool pulled over his eyes or practices in the local doc in a
>>> box.  I'm in the occupational medicine business and one thing I've
>learned
>>> is that patients are rarely fully truthful when their "career" is on the
>>> line.  Most physicians are poorly prepared or unwilling to address
>>> occupational issues and even fewer have even a vague idea of the cardiac,
>>> pulmonary and other stresses unique to diving.  A simple "note from the
>>> doctor", a doctor whose qualifications are totally unknown to you is
>>simply
>>> unacceptable.
>>>
>>> I am interested in whatever a "fitness renewal program" entails.  Is it
>>> simply a note or form?  Do they actually have to do something like a
>>stress
>>> test, running, biking,  swimming, etc.  Hmm... must be the IANTD
>>instructors
>>> I've seen were midcycle or in the remedial fitness program.
>>>
>>> When one of your instructors has a terminal event during training and
>>takes
>>> someone with him, I wonder what will happen?
>>>
>>> Geoff Kelafant MD MSPH FACOEM
>>> Board Certified Occupational Medicine
>>> US Navy Diving Medical Officer
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
>>> To: Tom Mount <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
>>> Cc: Mike Bruic <mikebruic@di*.co*>; <cavers@cavers.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:48 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Madison diving
>>>
>>> > Tom, this is the kind of duck I would expect from you. Rennaker is a
>>> > ridiculous fat slob - he just had a heart attack ( gee, I wonder
>why? ),
>>> > and his "right to work" is C R A P. The asshole retired from his
>factory
>>> > job over ten years ago, and is teaching diving on the side.
>>> >
>>> > Nice try, Tom.
>>> >
>>> > You and your organization do not know what the the word "fitness"
>means,
>>> > and the fact is that I will bet you that Rennaker's heart rate will not
>>> > drop the requisite bare minimum 12 beats per minute in one minute from
>>> > exertion levels that is the known marker standard for predicting  a
>>> > reasonable risk of less chance of a heart attack, let alone the 20 bpm
>>> > "comfort" level for a low risk , or the 60 bpm that my heart rate
>drops.
>>> > Forget that he is a fat slob who already had a heart attack.
>>> >
>>> > If Rennaker kills somebody now, you , the "doctor" and everyone else is
>>> > going to lose - it is too obvious that this guy does not need to be
>>> > doing this any more, and in my opinion, he never did.
>>> >
>>> > Prospective dive students have a "right" to a fit instructor, Tom, and
>>> > you are behaving badly for tolerating and promoting this.
>>> >
>>> > Tom Mount wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > To both of you
>>> > >
>>> > > All instructors with IANTD have to complete a MD medical and be
>signed
>>> off
>>> > > anytime their is a major illness. Bill has completed that. Bill also
>>did
>>> the
>>> > > fitness swim requirements as well.
>>> > >
>>> > > Now I'm sure if you would like to legally challenge the doctor for
>>> signing
>>> > > him off you can do so. But remember there as a right to work law and
>>you
>>> may
>>> > > wind up at the end of a lawsuit for you efforts from the MD and Bill.
>>> > > We are bound to accept the determination of the MD as to Bill's
>>fitness.
>>> > >
>>> > > Second IANTD unlike any other agency has a fitness renewal program as
>>> you
>>> > > know Mike and each instructor must complete it to be renewed. No
>other
>>> > > agency including GUE does this.
>>> > >
>>> > > This is BCC'ed to our lawyer and insurance.
>>> > >
>>> > > Respectfully yours,
>>> > > Tom Mount
>>> > > CEO IANTD World HQ
>>> > > http://www.iantd.com
>>> > >
>>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > > From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
>>> > > To: Mike Bruic <mikebruic@di*.co*>
>>> > > Cc: <TOM.MOUNT@wo*.at*.ne*>
>>> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 6:14 PM
>>> > > Subject: Re: Madison diving
>>> > >
>>> > > > Mike Bruic wrote:
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > George, here is a copy of the letter that went out to IANTD,
>NACD,
>>> and
>>> > > the
>>> > > > > NSS/CDS. It was sent certified, return receipt, and I have the
>>> > > > > acknowledgments of receipt in my files. When Rennaker does
>>fuck-up,
>>> I
>>> > > hope
>>> > > > > this letter will help any attorney crucify these assholes.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > Bruic
>>> > > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >     Mike, you are pissing in the wind with Mount and the rest of
>>these
>>> > > > hand-holders. Send it to his insurance agent and to his attorney,
>>Bill
>>> > > > Turbeville. Turbeville and the insurance company will make him do
>>the
>>> > > > right thing. I'll get you the insurance agency address.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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