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Scott, Hazel wants a forum where her hero, Jil Heinreth , can say she went 10,000 feet at Wakulla istead of half that without me blowing the whistle - not going to happen. I would also like to know two things from the Great Hazel: 1) why is it ok for Jill to lie, and 2) why is it so hard to dive in ten feet of hot water ? Also, why is it ok to put weenie lines all over rooms in caves and call them passages and claim records? Why is it acceptable for Hazel to respond to legitimate questions with the use of foul language and insults, and not ok for me to question this practice? Why is it that the cave diving community is such a bunch of hypocrites? Why is it that these people do nothing to preserve and protect the resources that are the sources of our pleasure, and that they instead devote their energy to battling with those who do? I love it when a self congrudulatory stroke like this Hazel gets on here and sets herself up as the voice of the New Order. Hazel, go back to wenieland or pull out your wallet and open your own cavers list like we all have done for our lists, like Quest or WKPP or Freeattic, or liek Cral has done with this list. When I want to hold a discussion with intelligent people without listening to pomposity like you , I pay to do so. If you are such a big time player, Hazel, you need to do the same. You have nothing in this world to say that I want or need to hear, so you will never be on my lists, and I have nothing to say to you that you have the ability to understand , so I will never be on yours. Do we have a deal, Big Time? Scott Migaldi wrote: > > A moderated list is hardly free speech. > > I for one am very happy with cavers even though there are sometimes > a lot of shouting and name calling. That being the case, a forum that allows > open and frank view points to be discussed is the best type of forum. Just > because someone disagreed with your opinion does not mean that there is no > freedom here just a lack of tolerance of stupid ideas and failure to learn > from mistakes. > > There is much to learn on this forum I fear your proposed forum would > not be as usefull to those of us who wish to live a long life. > > Scott > > >From: Hazel.Barton@UC*.ed* > >To: cavers@cavers.com > >Subject: A New List > >Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:15:07 -0700 > > > >I'm tired of the way that folks can no longer use this list to make > >announcements, discuss problems they are having, and asked for help without > >having someone leap down their throat - throwing insults at them and > >generally censoring the list by intimidation. > > > >The idea of the net was to allow free exchange of ideas, allow folks who > >are > >many miles away to learn from each other. We are a relatively small group, > >in a highly specialized sport. Everyone has their own ideas, and when > >shared > >within the community, can be integrated without pressure and actually lead > >to progress. > > > >The aim of the 'net' was not as a soapbox for any one person or group. > > > >It's time for a change. > > > >I have asked my friend Jim Olsen, who has mediated the dry-caver mailing > >list (with over 3000 subscribers from around the world) for the past 6 > >years, if he would be interested in moderating a new list for cave divers > >(he is an excellent diver). His response was as follows: > > > > >If there is a large group of people that want to start a different list, > > then let me know. I don't want to jump into a 'competition' thing. > >But > >I > > agree, from reading some of the archives, it does seem like the list > >is > > poorly run, and run for alterior motives than distributing > >information. > >So > > if there is enough of a demand, and people understand that it would be > >run > > like the cavers digest, let me know. That would mean all of the flame > >bait > > posts would be deleted and the list would be sent out only in digest > >format > > weekly. But I need to see that there is a large body of people who > >are > > currently on the list that would like to see it run elsewhere. Then > >it > > doesn't become 'empire' building and helps reduce the politics of the > > situation a bit. > > > >This is not censorship, Jim runs the list with only the following rules: > >1) The information has to relate to the field of cave diving > >2) No cave locations are listed > >3) No deliberate flaming or insults are allowed > > > >Jim maintains the mailing list, you email everything to him - so you don't > >get 30 error messages every time you post something and you receive all the > >postings in one Email, once a week. When you unsubscribe, you'll actually > >be > >removed from the list! AND no more spam mailings. > > > >So.... Who is interested? If we can get a good base together, then this is > >something positive that can happen with Cave Diving and the internet. Once > >we get established, announcements can be made in other arenas to really > >spread the word - a safe place for the exchange of ideas and the > >distribution of information. > > > > If you are interested, Email me with the title 'New List' and I'll > >forward > >everything to Jim. > > > >Regards, happy caving and freedom of speech! > > > >Hazel > >NSS 38664 > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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