Jim, anyone and everyone who wants a "Gavin" scooter can buy them from
the WKPP , either from me, from Carmichael, or from one of his dealers.
Having some dumb f--- making bullshit copies and selling them for 100
dollars less than we do is not the answer. Having scooters with no
support in place is bullhsit. Having scooters with hit or miss parts and
qualitly is bullshit. Having scooters made by dumb asses like Curt, or
mark Long, or Mark Meadows, or anyone else who is a proven idiot is
bullshit.

Look at what Stone went through trying to copy these things. It ruined
his whole project ( or at least provided a convenient excuse for the
failure of his project). Stone had King's money, he is an "engineer", he 
stole one of mine to copy, and look at the result.

The dive game is full of jerkoffs - don't let them get your money. We
make these things for the project, you buy them from the project, the
proceeds support the project and they suport the outstanding fleet. The
value of our scooters holds up for those who have bought them, and we
stand behind them and have done so for the last nine years.

Don't be making comments about Corvettes and Ferraris. My best friend
has a Ferrari, and I have a Corvette. My Vette will not only eat his
Ferrari for lunch in any realistic contest, like 100 mph up and stopped
by the next traffic light, but the windows roll all the way down, the
air conditioning works, you can listen ( actually hear) to music and
breath in the car, and all I have to do is put gas in it. I do not even
know how to open the hood - it is not necessary. I take it to the Chevy
dealer, not some bucket shop bullshit toy store full of fags with fake
British acccents every 3000 miles and he changes the oil , services the
car, and waxes it, while giving me one to drive. Sound like a fair
comparison? It is. 

The market for Corvettes and Gavins is the some - those who want them
can get them from real players, not assholes.


Jim Cobb wrote:
> 
> George-
> 
> Well, I don't think that everybody should have a Ferrari, but that there
> is a market a Corvette that nobody is filling. Farallon has tried with
> the Mk8, but it's too clunky for it's target market. There is nothing out
> there to fill the void, at least for now there isn't.
> 
>  Jim
> 
> Sender: kirvine@sa*.ne*  Date: 3/20/99 7:47 AM
> 
> >This is bullshit, Jim. I warrant and repair the scooters, and I know the
> >size of the market. The size of the market is the number of people to
> >whom I will sell them. We are not competing with anyone else. Oceanic
> >sells me the parts, and they make a scooter that has the real market.
> >You wil find that there are more of my scooters out there than anything
> >but Mako's or Apollo's.
> >
> >This is only to support the WKPP and the existing scooter fleet. Those
> >who want them can buy them from me, from Robert, or from other dealers
> >authorized by Robert, but I am the warranty and repair, not the dealer.
> >
> >What you are saying is that eveyone would have a Ferrari if they only
> >knew wher to get one - bullshit, Pal, you want a Ferrari, you figure out
> >where to get it, and you do not get it from trailer rats.
> >
> >Maybe these guys should copy the Cis Lunar and sell 200 of them.
> >
> >Jim Cobb wrote:
> >>
> >> Bill-
> >>
> >> The thing that occurs to me in this exercise is that there is a real
> >> commercial interest in your scooter which I think John can vouch for. I
> >> think you could market the WKPP product through dealer channels and
> >> really move some of these units. You talk about batches of 15-20, how
> >> about batches of 150-200? I think that with proper marketing numbers like
> >> this are realistic. Of course the question comes up of dealer channel
> >> support, repairs and warranty issues. Certainly not stuff you guys have
> >> the time or desire to do. Or do you?
> >>
> >> I know it's none of my business, but it seems to me that you should
> >> defend the primary aspects of the WKPP scooter through law-enforceable
> >> patents, not bluster and hoo-faa. You really ought to consider the volume
> >> aspects of profitability and consider patents, licensing and outside
> >> production of your product. You might be able to finance the further
> >> explorations of the WKPP plus make a couple of bucks on the side if you
> >> approach this with a slightly different angle.
> >>
> >> What is the market currently? You can either get a giant "flying dick"
> >> like a Predator, Farallon or the like. Or you can get a tiny Mako or
> >> Dacor. As far as the Atlantic diver is concerned, neither is
> >> satisfactory, the FD's are too fucking big and the Makos and Dacors have
> >> depth limitations. You guys have created a market among the tech divers
> >> by giving them the knowledge that you want to keep the physical exertion
> >> to a minimum at depth. Now they need the tools, a decent, reliable,
> >> small, deep scooter. The Dacor/Apollo people are out there now hinting
> >> that their product is good to 400ft. But they are not backing it up like
> >> you guys do. Why are they doing this? They see this gap in the market
> >> too, and I will bet they are working on doing something about it.
> >>
> >> You have to consider price points, as well. Certainly if there is a price
> >> break at 15-20 units, there must be some real savings at the 150-200
> >> level. Enough to bring the price point down to possibly the Mako/Dacor
> >> level, or at least the low-end Farallon. This is where the market will
> >> really open up to volume margin opportunities.
> >>
> >> Certainly you guys have thought of this, why not beat the inevitable
> >> competition to the draw?
> >>
> >>  Jim
> >>
> >> Sender: Bill Mee  Date: 3/19/99 4:44 PM
> >>
> >> >There is always a new snake in the grass. This particular reptile
slithered
> >> >out into view today. It seems that one Curt Deremer, formerly employed by
> >> >Dive Rite Manufacturing, is now building and selling unauthorized copies
of
> >> >WKPP scooters.  DeRemer operates as DPVRepair.com and apparently is a
> dealer
> >> >for AUL scooters and parts.
> >> >
> >> >It was bad enough that Bill Stone built a defective copy of the WKPP
> >> >scooter, but now it seems that every shade tree basement engineer is
giving
> >> >it their best shot.
> >> >
> >> >Anyone who thinks that they are being smart about purchasing a knockoff of
> >> >the WKPP scooter design had better think again. For openers, Bill Stone
> >> >spent tens of thousands of dollars attempting to copy the WKPP scooter and
> >> >never succeeded in producing a reliable facsimile. While the average
> redneck
> >> >grease monkey may think it is as simple as a short trip to the Home Depot
> >> >irrigation parts department, reality dictates otherwise.  These scooters
> are
> >> >built out of precision CNC machined components, which must be very
> carefully
> >> >assembled and tested.  The propulsion system, based on the Oceanic
> >> >continuous duty 24Volt DC motor must be precisely modified to obtain the
> >> >high performance observed on the standard issue WKPP unit.  Every single
> >> >connection and fitting is carefully specified out and selected for
> >> >reliability and excess to normal operating capacity. The completed
scooters
> >> >are tested for balance, vacuum tested to validate seal integrity and
> current
> >> >rating tested under simulated continuous load operating conditions.
> >> >
> >> >We never cease to be amazed at the ingenuity of persons buying WKPP
> >> >scooters, who somehow feel that they or their volunteer engineer
companions
> >> >“know better”. Some remarkable things have come back to George Irvine
and
> >> >myself, which if they weren’t such a costly and time consuming mess to
fix,
> >> >would actually be roll on the floor, spit your coke funny.  Such things as
> >> >lubricant sprayed in the motor compartment, which shorts the commutator,
to
> >> >jury rigged spacers, which throw off the correct balance, to hastily
> >> >reassembled motors with shims and spacers placed in backwards, to blade
and
> >> >clutch assemblies improperly assembled and other egregious messes too
> >> >numerous to mention.  The stories and excuses we hear, such as “it was
like
> >> >this when I got it”, “it just plain  blew up for no reason”, “I
don’t have
> >> >any idea why the motor is so slow” or “I don’t know why the scooter
sinks
> >> >directly into the mud” or “it just floated away by itself” and on and
on.
> >> >
> >> >Let me say flat out that there is no profit in WKPP scooters.  When you
buy
> >> >one of these devices you effectively get a lifetime parts and service
> >> >warranty against defects in the manufacture.  If you are a WKPP team
member
> >> >or involved in a bona fide exploration project (which describes just about
> >> >everyone who buys these things), you will receive any upgrade or
> improvement
> >> >at no charge. These things are extremely expensive and time consuming to
> >> >build correctly. At any given time George has to have huge sums of his
> >> >personal funds outstanding in order to assure that there is a stock of
> >> >components and other spare parts in inventory to keep all of the scooters
> in
> >> >the field operational.   For example, a single nose cone costs in excess
of
> >> >$600 to buy the material for and machine.  It is completely impractical to
> >> >make these scooters in anything less than quantities of 15 – 20 because
> >> >otherwise the parts will be prohibitively expensive.
> >> >
> >> >WKPP scooters are built to exploration tolerances and quality and there
> must
> >> >always be a cache of parts and subassemblies available to support ongoing
> >> >exploration projects. This is what you pay for.
> >> >
> >> >When we observe returned scooters which show obvious signs of
carelessness,
> >> >user error or user modification it does not make for a pleasant situation.
> >> >It is further galling to find out that some bonehead thinks that he can
> save
> >> >a few dollars when in fact he has created an inferior and very dangerous
> >> >product.
> >> >
> >> >It is no joke and no exaggeration to say that these scooters are very
> >> >dangerous. If the batteries off gas and this hydrogen seeps into the motor
> >> >compartment the scooters will violently explode upon triggering. Thus, it
> is
> >> >exceptionally important to observe simple safety precautions such as
> >> >removing the nose cone o-ring immediately after use and storing the
scooter
> >> >with this ring removed or the nose cone off. It is of further importance
to
> >> >ascertain that the motor compartment bulkhead o-ring is securely seated
and
> >> >not extruded and one must take pains to verify that the battery assembly
> >> >does not free float within the main compartment.  A loose battery pack can
> >> >allow the motor compartment bulkhead to pop off when the internal air
> >> >becomes heated.  These are just a handful of simple but important safety
> >> >observations, which unfortunately are all too often ignored.
> >> >
> >> >Mr. Curt DPVRepair is in for a big surprise. He thought he was very cute
> >> >about this and knew quite well what he was getting into.  When we have
> >> >finished with him he will wish that he had been smart enough to buy a real
> >> >scooter the honest way.
> >> >
> >> >Best Regards,
> >> >
> >> >Bill Mee
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aq*.co*'.
> >> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aq*.co*'

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