The fake Gavin already seams to be take away from production or atleast = from the web site. Check http://members.aol.com/NESSupply/index34.html I guess the dude realised that his move was going to be extremely bad = for his own store and reputation. I cant understand that he didnt figure = that out from the beginning. The fake scooter also looked pretty crapy. I guess he had to come out = with some changes in an atempt to be able to make the statement that it = shure was not a copy, pathetic indeed. It looks though that he have been trying to copy one of the new state of = the art Wkkp ones. I do not belive anybody would consider buying a fake. As G and Mee = already stated the Wkpp Gavin design have been developed over several = years and field tested in the verry hardest enviroments. It has its own = proven track record. Would anyone who cares even the slightest about safety put there own = life in yeperdy while trusting a scooter that have none what so ever = track record, no one that can recomend it or used it besides in the bath = tub? There is absolutely nothing about a fake scooter that proves how = well they will work when you really need it. my two cents.. Richard =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Fr=E5n: <kirvine@sa*.ne*> Till: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> Kopia: techdiver <techdiver@aq*.co*>; <cavers@cavers.com>; Bill Mee = <wwm@sa*.ne*>; John Allen <JDA000@ao*.co*>; Bill Allen = <william@ca*.co*> Skickat: den 20 mars 1999 17:03 =C4mne: Re: WKPP Scooters: Yet Another Knockoff >Jim, anyone and everyone who wants a "Gavin" scooter can buy them from >the WKPP , either from me, from Carmichael, or from one of his dealers. >Having some dumb f--- making bullshit copies and selling them for 100 >dollars less than we do is not the answer. Having scooters with no >support in place is bullhsit. Having scooters with hit or miss parts = and >qualitly is bullshit. Having scooters made by dumb asses like Curt, or >mark Long, or Mark Meadows, or anyone else who is a proven idiot is >bullshit. > >Look at what Stone went through trying to copy these things. It ruined >his whole project ( or at least provided a convenient excuse for the >failure of his project). Stone had King's money, he is an "engineer", = he=20 >stole one of mine to copy, and look at the result. > >The dive game is full of jerkoffs - don't let them get your money. We >make these things for the project, you buy them from the project, the >proceeds support the project and they suport the outstanding fleet. The >value of our scooters holds up for those who have bought them, and we >stand behind them and have done so for the last nine years. > >Don't be making comments about Corvettes and Ferraris. My best friend >has a Ferrari, and I have a Corvette. My Vette will not only eat his >Ferrari for lunch in any realistic contest, like 100 mph up and stopped >by the next traffic light, but the windows roll all the way down, the >air conditioning works, you can listen ( actually hear) to music and >breath in the car, and all I have to do is put gas in it. I do not even >know how to open the hood - it is not necessary. I take it to the Chevy >dealer, not some bucket shop bullshit toy store full of fags with fake >British acccents every 3000 miles and he changes the oil , services the >car, and waxes it, while giving me one to drive. Sound like a fair >comparison? It is.=20 > >The market for Corvettes and Gavins is the some - those who want them >can get them from real players, not assholes. > > >Jim Cobb wrote: >>=20 >> George- >>=20 >> Well, I don't think that everybody should have a Ferrari, but that = there >> is a market a Corvette that nobody is filling. Farallon has tried = with >> the Mk8, but it's too clunky for it's target market. There is nothing = out >> there to fill the void, at least for now there isn't. >>=20 >> Jim >>=20 >> Sender: kirvine@sa*.ne* Date: 3/20/99 7:47 AM >>=20 >> >This is bullshit, Jim. I warrant and repair the scooters, and I know = the >> >size of the market. The size of the market is the number of people = to >> >whom I will sell them. We are not competing with anyone else. = Oceanic >> >sells me the parts, and they make a scooter that has the real = market. >> >You wil find that there are more of my scooters out there than = anything >> >but Mako's or Apollo's. >> > >> >This is only to support the WKPP and the existing scooter fleet. = Those >> >who want them can buy them from me, from Robert, or from other = dealers >> >authorized by Robert, but I am the warranty and repair, not the = dealer. >> > >> >What you are saying is that eveyone would have a Ferrari if they = only >> >knew wher to get one - bullshit, Pal, you want a Ferrari, you figure = out >> >where to get it, and you do not get it from trailer rats. >> > >> >Maybe these guys should copy the Cis Lunar and sell 200 of them. >> > >> >Jim Cobb wrote: >> >> >> >> Bill- >> >> >> >> The thing that occurs to me in this exercise is that there is a = real >> >> commercial interest in your scooter which I think John can vouch = for. I >> >> think you could market the WKPP product through dealer channels = and >> >> really move some of these units. You talk about batches of 15-20, = how >> >> about batches of 150-200? I think that with proper marketing = numbers like >> >> this are realistic. Of course the question comes up of dealer = channel >> >> support, repairs and warranty issues. Certainly not stuff you guys = have >> >> the time or desire to do. Or do you? >> >> >> >> I know it's none of my business, but it seems to me that you = should >> >> defend the primary aspects of the WKPP scooter through = law-enforceable >> >> patents, not bluster and hoo-faa. You really ought to consider the = volume >> >> aspects of profitability and consider patents, licensing and = outside >> >> production of your product. You might be able to finance the = further >> >> explorations of the WKPP plus make a couple of bucks on the side = if you >> >> approach this with a slightly different angle. >> >> >> >> What is the market currently? You can either get a giant "flying = dick" >> >> like a Predator, Farallon or the like. Or you can get a tiny Mako = or >> >> Dacor. As far as the Atlantic diver is concerned, neither is >> >> satisfactory, the FD's are too fucking big and the Makos and = Dacors have >> >> depth limitations. You guys have created a market among the tech = divers >> >> by giving them the knowledge that you want to keep the physical = exertion >> >> to a minimum at depth. Now they need the tools, a decent, = reliable, >> >> small, deep scooter. The Dacor/Apollo people are out there now = hinting >> >> that their product is good to 400ft. But they are not backing it = up like >> >> you guys do. Why are they doing this? They see this gap in the = market >> >> too, and I will bet they are working on doing something about it. >> >> >> >> You have to consider price points, as well. Certainly if there is = a price >> >> break at 15-20 units, there must be some real savings at the = 150-200 >> >> level. Enough to bring the price point down to possibly the = Mako/Dacor >> >> level, or at least the low-end Farallon. This is where the market = will >> >> really open up to volume margin opportunities. >> >> >> >> Certainly you guys have thought of this, why not beat the = inevitable >> >> competition to the draw? >> >> >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> Sender: Bill Mee Date: 3/19/99 4:44 PM >> >> >> >> >There is always a new snake in the grass. This particular reptile = slithered >> >> >out into view today. It seems that one Curt Deremer, formerly = employed by >> >> >Dive Rite Manufacturing, is now building and selling unauthorized = copies of >> >> >WKPP scooters. DeRemer operates as DPVRepair.com and apparently = is a >> dealer >> >> >for AUL scooters and parts. >> >> > >> >> >It was bad enough that Bill Stone built a defective copy of the = WKPP >> >> >scooter, but now it seems that every shade tree basement engineer = is giving >> >> >it their best shot. >> >> > >> >> >Anyone who thinks that they are being smart about purchasing a = knockoff of >> >> >the WKPP scooter design had better think again. For openers, Bill = Stone >> >> >spent tens of thousands of dollars attempting to copy the WKPP = scooter and >> >> >never succeeded in producing a reliable facsimile. While the = average >> redneck >> >> >grease monkey may think it is as simple as a short trip to the = Home Depot >> >> >irrigation parts department, reality dictates otherwise. These = scooters >> are >> >> >built out of precision CNC machined components, which must be = very >> carefully >> >> >assembled and tested. The propulsion system, based on the = Oceanic >> >> >continuous duty 24Volt DC motor must be precisely modified to = obtain the >> >> >high performance observed on the standard issue WKPP unit. Every = single >> >> >connection and fitting is carefully specified out and selected = for >> >> >reliability and excess to normal operating capacity. The = completed scooters >> >> >are tested for balance, vacuum tested to validate seal integrity = and >> current >> >> >rating tested under simulated continuous load operating = conditions. >> >> > >> >> >We never cease to be amazed at the ingenuity of persons buying = WKPP >> >> >scooters, who somehow feel that they or their volunteer engineer = companions >> >> >know better. Some remarkable things have come back to George = Irvine and >> >> >myself, which if they werent such a costly and time consuming = mess to fix, >> >> >would actually be roll on the floor, spit your coke funny. Such = things as >> >> >lubricant sprayed in the motor compartment, which shorts the = commutator, to >> >> >jury rigged spacers, which throw off the correct balance, to = hastily >> >> >reassembled motors with shims and spacers placed in backwards, to = blade and >> >> >clutch assemblies improperly assembled and other egregious messes = too >> >> >numerous to mention. The stories and excuses we hear, such as it = was like >> >> >this when I got it, it just plain blew up for no reason, I dont = have >> >> >any idea why the motor is so slow or I dont know why the scooter = sinks >> >> >directly into the mud or it just floated away by itself and on = and on. >> >> > >> >> >Let me say flat out that there is no profit in WKPP scooters. = When you buy >> >> >one of these devices you effectively get a lifetime parts and = service >> >> >warranty against defects in the manufacture. If you are a WKPP = team member >> >> >or involved in a bona fide exploration project (which describes = just about >> >> >everyone who buys these things), you will receive any upgrade or >> improvement >> >> >at no charge. These things are extremely expensive and time = consuming to >> >> >build correctly. At any given time George has to have huge sums = of his >> >> >personal funds outstanding in order to assure that there is a = stock of >> >> >components and other spare parts in inventory to keep all of the = scooters >> in >> >> >the field operational. For example, a single nose cone costs in = excess of >> >> >$600 to buy the material for and machine. It is completely = impractical to >> >> >make these scooters in anything less than quantities of 15 20 = because >> >> >otherwise the parts will be prohibitively expensive. >> >> > >> >> >WKPP scooters are built to exploration tolerances and quality and = there >> must >> >> >always be a cache of parts and subassemblies available to support = ongoing >> >> >exploration projects. This is what you pay for. >> >> > >> >> >When we observe returned scooters which show obvious signs of = carelessness, >> >> >user error or user modification it does not make for a pleasant = situation. >> >> >It is further galling to find out that some bonehead thinks that = he can >> save >> >> >a few dollars when in fact he has created an inferior and very = dangerous >> >> >product. >> >> > >> >> >It is no joke and no exaggeration to say that these scooters are = very >> >> >dangerous. If the batteries off gas and this hydrogen seeps into = the motor >> >> >compartment the scooters will violently explode upon triggering. = Thus, it >> is >> >> >exceptionally important to observe simple safety precautions such = as >> >> >removing the nose cone o-ring immediately after use and storing = the scooter >> >> >with this ring removed or the nose cone off. It is of further = importance to >> >> >ascertain that the motor compartment bulkhead o-ring is securely = seated and >> >> >not extruded and one must take pains to verify that the battery = assembly >> >> >does not free float within the main compartment. A loose battery = pack can >> >> >allow the motor compartment bulkhead to pop off when the internal = air >> >> >becomes heated. These are just a handful of simple but important = safety >> >> >observations, which unfortunately are all too often ignored. >> >> > >> >> >Mr. Curt DPVRepair is in for a big surprise. He thought he was = very cute >> >> >about this and knew quite well what he was getting into. When we = have >> >> >finished with him he will wish that he had been smart enough to = buy a real >> >> >scooter the honest way. >> >> > >> >> >Best Regards, >> >> > >> >> >Bill Mee >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >-- >> >> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to = `techdiver@aq*.co*'. >> >> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to = `techdiver-request@aq*.co*' > > >
Navigate by Author:
[Previous]
[Next]
[Author Search Index]
Navigate by Subject:
[Previous]
[Next]
[Subject Search Index]
[Send Reply] [Send Message with New Topic]
[Search Selection] [Mailing List Home] [Home]