The fake Gavin already seams to be take away from production or atleast =
from the web site. Check http://members.aol.com/NESSupply/index34.html

I guess the dude realised that his move was going to be extremely bad =
for his own store and reputation. I cant understand that he didnt figure =
that out from the beginning.

The fake scooter also looked pretty crapy. I guess he had to come out =
with some changes in an atempt to be able to make the statement that it =
shure was not a copy, pathetic indeed.

It looks though that he have been trying to copy one of the new state of =
the art  Wkkp ones.

I do not belive anybody would consider buying a fake. As G and Mee =
already stated the Wkpp Gavin design have been developed over several =
years and field tested in the verry hardest enviroments. It has its own =
proven track record.

Would anyone who cares even the slightest about safety put there own =
life in yeperdy while trusting a scooter that have none what so ever =
track record, no one that can recomend it or used it besides in the bath =
tub? There is absolutely nothing about a fake scooter that proves how =
well they will work when you really need it.

my two cents..
Richard



=20
----- Original Message -----=20
Fr=E5n: <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
Till: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>
Kopia: techdiver <techdiver@aq*.co*>; <cavers@cavers.com>; Bill Mee =
<wwm@sa*.ne*>; John Allen <JDA000@ao*.co*>; Bill Allen =
<william@ca*.co*>
Skickat: den 20 mars 1999 17:03
=C4mne: Re: WKPP Scooters: Yet Another Knockoff


>Jim, anyone and everyone who wants a "Gavin" scooter can buy them from
>the WKPP , either from me, from Carmichael, or from one of his dealers.
>Having some dumb f--- making bullshit copies and selling them for 100
>dollars less than we do is not the answer. Having scooters with no
>support in place is bullhsit. Having scooters with hit or miss parts =
and
>qualitly is bullshit. Having scooters made by dumb asses like Curt, or
>mark Long, or Mark Meadows, or anyone else who is a proven idiot is
>bullshit.
>
>Look at what Stone went through trying to copy these things. It ruined
>his whole project ( or at least provided a convenient excuse for the
>failure of his project). Stone had King's money, he is an "engineer", =
he=20
>stole one of mine to copy, and look at the result.
>
>The dive game is full of jerkoffs - don't let them get your money. We
>make these things for the project, you buy them from the project, the
>proceeds support the project and they suport the outstanding fleet. The
>value of our scooters holds up for those who have bought them, and we
>stand behind them and have done so for the last nine years.
>
>Don't be making comments about Corvettes and Ferraris. My best friend
>has a Ferrari, and I have a Corvette. My Vette will not only eat his
>Ferrari for lunch in any realistic contest, like 100 mph up and stopped
>by the next traffic light, but the windows roll all the way down, the
>air conditioning works, you can listen ( actually hear) to music and
>breath in the car, and all I have to do is put gas in it. I do not even
>know how to open the hood - it is not necessary. I take it to the Chevy
>dealer, not some bucket shop bullshit toy store full of fags with fake
>British acccents every 3000 miles and he changes the oil , services the
>car, and waxes it, while giving me one to drive. Sound like a fair
>comparison? It is.=20
>
>The market for Corvettes and Gavins is the some - those who want them
>can get them from real players, not assholes.
>
>
>Jim Cobb wrote:
>>=20
>> George-
>>=20
>> Well, I don't think that everybody should have a Ferrari, but that =
there
>> is a market a Corvette that nobody is filling. Farallon has tried =
with
>> the Mk8, but it's too clunky for it's target market. There is nothing =
out
>> there to fill the void, at least for now there isn't.
>>=20
>>  Jim
>>=20
>> Sender: kirvine@sa*.ne*  Date: 3/20/99 7:47 AM
>>=20
>> >This is bullshit, Jim. I warrant and repair the scooters, and I know =
the
>> >size of the market. The size of the market is the number of people =
to
>> >whom I will sell them. We are not competing with anyone else. =
Oceanic
>> >sells me the parts, and they make a scooter that has the real =
market.
>> >You wil find that there are more of my scooters out there than =
anything
>> >but Mako's or Apollo's.
>> >
>> >This is only to support the WKPP and the existing scooter fleet. =
Those
>> >who want them can buy them from me, from Robert, or from other =
dealers
>> >authorized by Robert, but I am the warranty and repair, not the =
dealer.
>> >
>> >What you are saying is that eveyone would have a Ferrari if they =
only
>> >knew wher to get one - bullshit, Pal, you want a Ferrari, you figure =
out
>> >where to get it, and you do not get it from trailer rats.
>> >
>> >Maybe these guys should copy the Cis Lunar and sell 200 of them.
>> >
>> >Jim Cobb wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Bill-
>> >>
>> >> The thing that occurs to me in this exercise is that there is a =
real
>> >> commercial interest in your scooter which I think John can vouch =
for. I
>> >> think you could market the WKPP product through dealer channels =
and
>> >> really move some of these units. You talk about batches of 15-20, =
how
>> >> about batches of 150-200? I think that with proper marketing =
numbers like
>> >> this are realistic. Of course the question comes up of dealer =
channel
>> >> support, repairs and warranty issues. Certainly not stuff you guys =
have
>> >> the time or desire to do. Or do you?
>> >>
>> >> I know it's none of my business, but it seems to me that you =
should
>> >> defend the primary aspects of the WKPP scooter through =
law-enforceable
>> >> patents, not bluster and hoo-faa. You really ought to consider the =
volume
>> >> aspects of profitability and consider patents, licensing and =
outside
>> >> production of your product. You might be able to finance the =
further
>> >> explorations of the WKPP plus make a couple of bucks on the side =
if you
>> >> approach this with a slightly different angle.
>> >>
>> >> What is the market currently? You can either get a giant "flying =
dick"
>> >> like a Predator, Farallon or the like. Or you can get a tiny Mako =
or
>> >> Dacor. As far as the Atlantic diver is concerned, neither is
>> >> satisfactory, the FD's are too fucking big and the Makos and =
Dacors have
>> >> depth limitations. You guys have created a market among the tech =
divers
>> >> by giving them the knowledge that you want to keep the physical =
exertion
>> >> to a minimum at depth. Now they need the tools, a decent, =
reliable,
>> >> small, deep scooter. The Dacor/Apollo people are out there now =
hinting
>> >> that their product is good to 400ft. But they are not backing it =
up like
>> >> you guys do. Why are they doing this? They see this gap in the =
market
>> >> too, and I will bet they are working on doing something about it.
>> >>
>> >> You have to consider price points, as well. Certainly if there is =
a price
>> >> break at 15-20 units, there must be some real savings at the =
150-200
>> >> level. Enough to bring the price point down to possibly the =
Mako/Dacor
>> >> level, or at least the low-end Farallon. This is where the market =
will
>> >> really open up to volume margin opportunities.
>> >>
>> >> Certainly you guys have thought of this, why not beat the =
inevitable
>> >> competition to the draw?
>> >>
>> >>  Jim
>> >>
>> >> Sender: Bill Mee  Date: 3/19/99 4:44 PM
>> >>
>> >> >There is always a new snake in the grass. This particular reptile =
slithered
>> >> >out into view today. It seems that one Curt Deremer, formerly =
employed by
>> >> >Dive Rite Manufacturing, is now building and selling unauthorized =
copies of
>> >> >WKPP scooters.  DeRemer operates as DPVRepair.com and apparently =
is a
>> dealer
>> >> >for AUL scooters and parts.
>> >> >
>> >> >It was bad enough that Bill Stone built a defective copy of the =
WKPP
>> >> >scooter, but now it seems that every shade tree basement engineer =
is giving
>> >> >it their best shot.
>> >> >
>> >> >Anyone who thinks that they are being smart about purchasing a =
knockoff of
>> >> >the WKPP scooter design had better think again. For openers, Bill =
Stone
>> >> >spent tens of thousands of dollars attempting to copy the WKPP =
scooter and
>> >> >never succeeded in producing a reliable facsimile. While the =
average
>> redneck
>> >> >grease monkey may think it is as simple as a short trip to the =
Home Depot
>> >> >irrigation parts department, reality dictates otherwise.  These =
scooters
>> are
>> >> >built out of precision CNC machined components, which must be =
very
>> carefully
>> >> >assembled and tested.  The propulsion system, based on the =
Oceanic
>> >> >continuous duty 24Volt DC motor must be precisely modified to =
obtain the
>> >> >high performance observed on the standard issue WKPP unit.  Every =
single
>> >> >connection and fitting is carefully specified out and selected =
for
>> >> >reliability and excess to normal operating capacity. The =
completed scooters
>> >> >are tested for balance, vacuum tested to validate seal integrity =
and
>> current
>> >> >rating tested under simulated continuous load operating =
conditions.
>> >> >
>> >> >We never cease to be amazed at the ingenuity of persons buying =
WKPP
>> >> >scooters, who somehow feel that they or their volunteer engineer =
companions
>> >> >know better. Some remarkable things have come back to George =
Irvine and
>> >> >myself, which if they werent such a costly and time consuming =
mess to fix,
>> >> >would actually be roll on the floor, spit your coke funny.  Such =
things as
>> >> >lubricant sprayed in the motor compartment, which shorts the =
commutator, to
>> >> >jury rigged spacers, which throw off the correct balance, to =
hastily
>> >> >reassembled motors with shims and spacers placed in backwards, to =
blade and
>> >> >clutch assemblies improperly assembled and other egregious messes =
too
>> >> >numerous to mention.  The stories and excuses we hear, such as it =
was like
>> >> >this when I got it, it just plain  blew up for no reason, I dont =
have
>> >> >any idea why the motor is so slow or I dont know why the scooter =
sinks
>> >> >directly into the mud or it just floated away by itself and on =
and on.
>> >> >
>> >> >Let me say flat out that there is no profit in WKPP scooters.  =
When you buy
>> >> >one of these devices you effectively get a lifetime parts and =
service
>> >> >warranty against defects in the manufacture.  If you are a WKPP =
team member
>> >> >or involved in a bona fide exploration project (which describes =
just about
>> >> >everyone who buys these things), you will receive any upgrade or
>> improvement
>> >> >at no charge. These things are extremely expensive and time =
consuming to
>> >> >build correctly. At any given time George has to have huge sums =
of his
>> >> >personal funds outstanding in order to assure that there is a =
stock of
>> >> >components and other spare parts in inventory to keep all of the =
scooters
>> in
>> >> >the field operational.   For example, a single nose cone costs in =
excess of
>> >> >$600 to buy the material for and machine.  It is completely =
impractical to
>> >> >make these scooters in anything less than quantities of 15 20 =
because
>> >> >otherwise the parts will be prohibitively expensive.
>> >> >
>> >> >WKPP scooters are built to exploration tolerances and quality and =
there
>> must
>> >> >always be a cache of parts and subassemblies available to support =
ongoing
>> >> >exploration projects. This is what you pay for.
>> >> >
>> >> >When we observe returned scooters which show obvious signs of =
carelessness,
>> >> >user error or user modification it does not make for a pleasant =
situation.
>> >> >It is further galling to find out that some bonehead thinks that =
he can
>> save
>> >> >a few dollars when in fact he has created an inferior and very =
dangerous
>> >> >product.
>> >> >
>> >> >It is no joke and no exaggeration to say that these scooters are =
very
>> >> >dangerous. If the batteries off gas and this hydrogen seeps into =
the motor
>> >> >compartment the scooters will violently explode upon triggering. =
Thus, it
>> is
>> >> >exceptionally important to observe simple safety precautions such =
as
>> >> >removing the nose cone o-ring immediately after use and storing =
the scooter
>> >> >with this ring removed or the nose cone off. It is of further =
importance to
>> >> >ascertain that the motor compartment bulkhead o-ring is securely =
seated and
>> >> >not extruded and one must take pains to verify that the battery =
assembly
>> >> >does not free float within the main compartment.  A loose battery =
pack can
>> >> >allow the motor compartment bulkhead to pop off when the internal =
air
>> >> >becomes heated.  These are just a handful of simple but important =
safety
>> >> >observations, which unfortunately are all too often ignored.
>> >> >
>> >> >Mr. Curt DPVRepair is in for a big surprise. He thought he was =
very cute
>> >> >about this and knew quite well what he was getting into.  When we =
have
>> >> >finished with him he will wish that he had been smart enough to =
buy a real
>> >> >scooter the honest way.
>> >> >
>> >> >Best Regards,
>> >> >
>> >> >Bill Mee
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to =
`techdiver@aq*.co*'.
>> >> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to =
`techdiver-request@aq*.co*'
>
>
>

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