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I just wanted to see it one more time.
I see IANTD has moved over to compuserve ,
where they belong, with the rest of the strokes.
IT IS ABOUT TIME WE HAD A RESPONSE ON THIS, AND IT TOOK
SIX DAYS TO GET IT, AND IT STILL MAKES NO SENSE
READ ON:
On 13 Sep 95, IANTD <102567.3457@co*.co*> wrote:
>Bill & George + intersted parties
(Bill is Bill Mee, not Gavin)
>IANTD
>
>1. On po2's: Limits are like the red line on a tach they represent do not
exceed
> Recreational LIMIT is 1.6 ATA. with work po2 at 1.4 to 1.5 max
>
INDEFENSIBLE - SEE EXTENSIVE, EXAUSTIVE STUDIES AND OIL
COMPANY RECORDS. SEE MILITARY AND COMMERCIAL STANDARDS. TOTALLY
UNACCEPTABLE.
>2. On tech diving max po2 is 1.5 ATA work or operational po2 is 1.4 ATA or less
WHICH IS IT? WHY ONLY "TEC" DIVING. WAS JIM FERNANDEZ
DOING A "TEC" DIVE WHEN HE TOXED AND DROWNED AT GINNIE
SPRINGS AT 1.6, OR WAS THIS A NON-TEC DIVE. IRRESPNSIBLE,
INDEFENSIBLE.
> In both rec and tech diving our material state foe each variable decrease
>the po2 by0.05 ATA
> The variables include cold, work, extended deco etc. For deco we state
>decrease by0.25 ATA for each variable.
DIVE THE RIGHT PPO2 IN THE FIRST PLACE
>
>3. Yes in tech EANx we do teach a max depth to 170 feet The depth range is 140
>to 170
> but the po 2 may not exceed 1.4 ATA.the dives use higher EANx mixes for
deco
THIS IS COMPLETE NONSENSE - YOU HAVE TOO DEEP AN AED EVEN
WITHOUT CONDSIDERING THE NARCOTIC EFFECTS OF THE OXYGEN. BESIDES
THIS WOULD BE 22.8% OXYGEN - HOW STUPID DO YOU THINK WE ARE - YOU
HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE DOING - YOU ARE SCRAMBLING FOR ANSWERS
LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN DOING FOR THE LAST SIX YEARS. WAKE UP.
WHEN YOU ARE WRONG, ADMIT IT AND MAKE THE NECESSARY CHANGE
>with a recommended max of EAN 80 staring at 30 feet or not to exceed a po 2
>of 1.55 ATA for deco. we do not prohibit oxygen but as it has a po 2 of
1.61
>ata at 20 fsw we encourage it be replaced with a mix that will not exceed
>1.55 ata.
ONLY USEFUL IF NO 20 FOOT AVAILABLE. DANGEROUS TO MIX
AT HIGH PRESSURES,BUT THEN YOU DIDN'T THINK OF THAT
>
>4. In all dives the CNS percent clock (100%) is not to be exceded and IANTD has
>tables for computing the CNS % dose and also the cns% surface interval
>
USING HAMILTON? SOME COMMERCIAL SOURCE? OR THAT
WOTHLESS DIVEPLAN?
>5. We encourage divers to use trimix on dives deeper than 160 FSW but we are
>reralistic in that we teach to a depthof 190 feet on air (po2m of 1.42ATA)
REALISTIC? REALISTIC - HOW ABOUT COMPLETELY IRRESSPONSIBLE. MAKE UP
YOUR MIND - ARE YOU A TEC AGENCY OR WHAT. DEEP AIR IS NOT
TECHNICAL DIVING, IT IS PROVEN TO BE STUPID, AND YOU ARE
ENCOUAGING IT, SENDING OUT THE WRONG MESSAGE, AND MAKING
US ALL LOOK LIKE FOOLS. WHY BOTHER? THIS IS TOO DEEP - WHY DON'T YOU FIND OUT
WHAT THE PROS ARE DOING, INSTEAD OF SENDING STUDENTS OUT TO
GET KILLEDS? WE CAN'T USE PEOPLE YOU HAVE TRAINED FOR ANYTHING.
IN FACT, WE HAVE TO ASK THEM TO STAY OUT OF THE WAY OF THE CAMERAS,
BECAUSE THE GEAR RIG YOU PUT THEM INTO MAKES THEM LOOK LIKE
THANKSGIVING TURKEYS. WHY DO YOU THINK PADI CAME UP WITH 130 MAX?
>6. We recommend a end on mix of 132 feet but we allow deeper ends on great
>depths ususally BULLSHIT
- THEN WHY NOT ON AIR? - ARE YOU KIDDING? THERE ARE MORE
COMPLETE INCONSISTENCIES IN YOUR PROGRAM THAT WOULD BE
CONSIDERED POSSIBLE
- THERE IS NO REASON FOR DEEPER AED'S
> a maximum of 165 fsw. a typical mix ranges from for instance at a depth of
>250 feet, heliair 14 33 to trimix 16 50.
HELIAR IS COMPLETELY BOGUS - I SUPPOSED IT'S "MORE NATURAL"?
>
>7. We are the first organization to specify minimum bottom times in courses to
>increase diver proficiency
RIGHT NOW ALL OF THESE ORGANIZATIONS NEED A SWIFT KICK
IN THE ASS, NOT JUST YOURS. DEEP AIR GILLIAM IS IN NEED OF
A WAKE UP CALL , BUT MORE BECAUSE HE HAS A COUPLE OF ROGUE
CLOWNS LIKE COMLY OUT THERE MAKING HIM LOOK BAD. ANDI SEEMS
TO BE THE ONLY SANE ONE, BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN MUCH OUT OF THEM.
I DO HOWEVER, HOLD MY CERTIFICATION WITH THEM, BUT IT WAS SO
LONG AGO , I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT THE STANDARDS WERE OR ARE,
AND UNLIKE YOURS, THEIRS WAS A CLASSROOM COURSE AS IT SHOULD BE,
NOT SOME CONVOLUTED ROCK QUARRY DEATH RIDE OR SWIMMIJG POOL
NONSENSE. IT WAS FOR PEOPLE WHO ALREADY KNEW HOW TO DIVE.
> in fact other agencies and some individuals refer to outr training as UDT
>style as it is developed around the process of accident analysis and it
>includes as you know substantial strss management drills simulating real
>life emergencies. We go to great trouble to constantly update our programs with
>the maximum diver safety we can produce. The courses are developed by many of
>the leading tech divers iaround the world. It is not perfect but we
continue
YOUR STRESS MANAGEMENT IS YOUR ONLY USEFUL COURSE - BUT
WHO WOULD TAKE THAT WEHN THEY CAN GET BIGGER BADGES
>to search for perfection
YOU GUYS SEARCH FOR NOTHING - YOU ARE STILL TRYING TO TELL
ME HOW TO BUILD A SCOOTER, YOU RECOMMEND DIVE GEAR WITHOUT
EVEN TRYING IT, AND YOU IGNORE THE PROS.
which is the best anyone can do
> YOU HAVE YET TO LISTEN TO ONE OUTSIDE SUGGESION - I SAW YOU HAVE
A CONVERSATION LIKE THIS SIX YEARS AGO AT A NACD TRAINING
MEETING - NOTHING HAS CHANGED. AT LEAST YOU QUIT WEARING FREE-DIVING
FINS IN THE CAVES
>8. On tank markings we are still the same as we have been except at Georges
>suggestion we are going to come out with additional colored backgrounds and
>ink so multi mix dives can be more easily identified.
> OUR SUGGESTION IS TO MARK THE TANKS WITH THE OPERATING
DEPTH AND TO LEAVE THE MERRIT BADGES AND ADVERTISING OFF
>9. In cave diving we are demanding on equipment and defintitely on line arrows.
>On acidents I do not think any of the agencies are negilent the problem is that
>divers do not follow the safety issues covered once they leave a course whether
>it be IANTD, NACD, or NSS cds or CDAA. All of us do the best we can. In an
IANTD
THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IANTD- THIS WAS FOR THE NICKELROCKETS
>WE WILL SEE HOW GOOD YOUR TRAINING IS WHEN TALLAHASSEE CLEARS. IF YOU
KEEP RECOMMENDING DEEP AED'S I WILL RECOMMNED THAT THE DEEP CAVES BE
CLOSED TO ANYONE HOLDING YOUR CERTIFICATION. AND TRUST ME, I WILL GET
IT DONE IF YOU DON'T CHANGE.
course we demand a minimum of 450 minutes of bottom time in a full cave course.
>Most of us teach with 500 minutes + I ususally exceed 600 minutes in my
classes.
A CAVE DIVE IS TO THIRDS, NOT POTHOLE TO PEACOCK, NOT THREE PER DAY,
NOT TAUGHT BY CALIFONIANS AND OTHERS WHO DON'T ACTUALLY DO IT. YOUR
CAVE TRAINING ACTUALLY COULDN'T BE ANY WORSE THAN ANYONE ELSES -
IT IS THE INSTRUCTOR THAT MAKES THE COURSE, NOT THE AGENCY.
>All the cave associations do a good job.
THEY ALL SUCK
>
>10. Again IANTD rec courses include:
>open water-advanced open water-nitrox diver-deep air to 130 feet-advanced EANx-
>overhead environment-introductory cave-rebreather-dive master
> WHO IS QUALIFIED TO TEACH REBREATHER? - NO THANKS - THIS
IS THE TYPICAL KIND OF MERRIT BADGERY THAT WILL GET US ALL
RESTRICTED - HOW ABOUT ACTING RESPONSIBLY FOR ONCE. YOU DON'T
HAVE ANY BUSINEES FOOLING WITH REBREATHERS. LEARN HOW TO OPERATE
YOUR SCOOTER FIRST.
>11. Tech courses include
"ADVANCED DEEP AIR" HOW ABOUT ADVANCED STUPIDITY
>advanced deep air to 160 feet- tech EANx- tech deep air to 190 feeet- trimix -
>Wreck-cave ad cave-
>rebreather-and blender + of course instructor qualifications
BADGERY>
>12. Yes we know the effects of nitrogen on the body and we also know the
effects
IF YOU DID YOU WOULD NOT RECOMMEND DEEP AIR
>of helium on the body. Helium as nitrogen has numerous side effects but is a
>risk benefit choice for deeper dives.
> IT IS THE ONLY CHOICE
>13. IANTD teaches risk awareness at all levels of training. and we emphasize
>both physcial and mental conditioning.
> THE RISK IS GETTING TRAINED BY IANTD - NO ONE WILL DIVE
WITH YOU
>on dives all dives we recommend filling out the following table
>
>RISK CORRECTIVE ACTION BENEFIT VALUE ( on value a series of yes and no
>answers will
>
ass
>ist the individual in deciding if a specific form
>of diving is worth the risk to them)
>
>14. IANTD is open to worthwhile input on how to increase diver safety. We are
>not going to play debate games as we spend our time trying to search out and
>refine better training methods and updating our instructors and the diving
>public.
> THIS IS BULLSHIT - YOU NEED TO WAKE UP AND DO A LITTLE
HOMEWORK. YOU ARE PUTTING PEOPLES LIVES AT RISK AND YOU DON'T
SEEM TO WANT TO FACE UP TO IT. THESE THINGS ARE WELL DOCUMENTED
IN COMMERCIAL DIVING. YOU WILL DEBATE IT UNTIL YOU CHANGE IT.
I , FOR ONE, WILL NOT LET YOU UP ON THIS UNTIL TO START TAKING
A LESS CAVALIER ATTITUDE ABOUT PEOPLES LIVES.
>--
>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@terra.net'.
>Send subscription/archive requests to `techdiver-request@terra.net'.
>
>
>
<---- End Forwarded Message ---->
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