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From: "David Hoy" <david@th*.co*>
To: <girvine@be*.ne*>, <>, <scubapig@co*.ne*>
Subject: Re: RE: [dir-asia] Digest Number 102
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:23:56 -0400
Mr. Irvine,

I believe that Brian was responding (or perhaps overreacting) to your posts
that refer to the folks at IANTD, TDI and others as "idiots", "mail order
assholes", "Mouth", "the Slob", "bag of shit", etc.  While everyone is
entitled to their opinion, airing it out in public like that is bound to
generate negative responses like Brian's.  I'm not saying that you should
not voice your opinions, just don't get upset when others have contrary
viewpoints.  Because someone does not have the same background and
experience as you do does not invalidate their views.

I'm sure that you've had many people ask your opinion, only to have them
turn around and do stupid things.  In the process they get hurt or killed,
or worse as in the case of the rebreather incident getting someone else
killed.  I know that this must be incredibly frustrating to someone like
you.  Please don't let that sour your opinion of the rest of us.  I'm sure
there are some who "blow sunshine", but I'm sure that the majority try to be
as safe as they know how.  And this is where I see DIR coming in - adding to
the overall safety of my dive buddies and me.

Once again, please know that I have great respect for your accomplishments,
and I know that I could learn a lot from folks like you.  Unfortunately it
takes time and money for us to develop the experience and to undergo the
necessary training to become better divers.  Right now I'm in the middle of
a two week Public Safety Diver course at the Georgia Public Safety Training
Center - that's a lot of time to take away from my family and my job.  DIR-F
is one of the next things on my list when I have the time and funds to do
it.  I disagree with you that we have no basis for a conversation until I've
gone through a DIR course.  I may have some misperceptions about certain
things (we all do), but the only way to overcome those is by open
non-confrontational dialogue.  This way we all benefit from each others
experience and perspective.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "George Irvine" <girvine@be*.ne*>
To: "David Hoy" <david@th*.co*>; <>; <>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: RE: [dir-asia] Digest Number 102

> Mr Hoy, go back an read this guy's "attack" before you get concerned about
> me. I have no patience or time for this, and as you will find out if you
> ever do take the courses or even get to where you can understand what I do
> and say, there is no basis for a conversation here. If you guys ever get
> where you have the basis for a conversation, and you will find me the best
> resource in the world. At this stage of the game, there is nothing you
> from me. Go start at the beginning, and don't make the mistake of your pal
> here who came out swinging - he will never get anything but the same back
> from anyone. There is a saying for that - "take the cotton out of your
> and put it in your mouth". Don't like that attitude? Fine, go someplace
> where they will blow sunshine up your ass to get at your wallet. I am not
> the business.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Hoy [mailto:david@th*.co*]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 9:47 AM
> To: scubapig@co*.ne*;
> Subject: Re: RE: [dir-asia] Digest Number 102
> Hi Bruce,
> I wanted to thank you for your reasoned approach to this whole mess.  I
> been looking on from the outside as someone interested in what DIR has to
> offer, and not sure what all the fuss was about.  Then along comes Mr.
> Irvine bashing you for asking, in my opinion, reasonable questions and I
> begin to understand why there is a vicious debate about DIR.  Not to
> from Mr. Irvine's many impressive accomplishments, but I hope that his
> attitude is not indicative of the majority of DIR proponents.
> Mr. Irvine, if you are reading this please do not mistake it as attacking
> you - I have a great deal of respect for what you have done and what you
> stand for (your safety record at WKPP speaks for itself).  My point is
> similar to what others have said - it is hard to learn from someone who
> berates you for not doing things the way they do.  While DIR may be one of
> the safest ways to dive, the only way to create more DIR divers is to show
> them what it involves and let them come to a personal realization that it
> will work for them.  I look forward to meeting you at some time in the
> future and sharing philosophies over a post-dive beer :-).
> I am, as Bruce is, still interested in the DIR Fundamentals course as
> something I can learn from and become a better, safer diver - a goal I
> that we all share.
> Regards,
> David.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <scubapig@co*.ne*>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 00:31
> Subject: Re: RE: [dir-asia] Digest Number 102
> I think we've beat this into the ground, but I'd like to say a few last
> words before I shut my yap.
> First, thanks to all the GUE instructors and DIR practitioners that read
> took the time to understand what I wrote and responded accordingly.  To
> of the others that don't quite understand the point I tried to make,
> let me explain...
> I came out and attacked DIR by comparing to another organization that many
> people consider a cult.  It may not be accurate, but it sure got your
> attention.  You did what I expected - you fought back.  You called me a
> "loud mouth" and told me I had a chip on my shoulder for talking smack
> something you felt strongly about.  You ignored the fact that I praised JJ
> and even read three of his books (if I was a non-believer, why would I
> buying his stuff and supporting GUE????).  It didn't matter what the rest
> message said, you were pissed.  This is a classic example of human
> behavior - when threatened, you defend yourself!
> Now, let's turn things around a little.  How do you think tech divers from
> other training organizations feel when you attack their background,
> training, and mentors?  They resist and shut their brains off just like
> did.  They start calling DIR divers loud mouths with chips on their
> shoulder.  Does any of this sound familiar?  These people (just as you
> have invested an incredible amount of time and money in equipment and
> training.  The last thing they want to hear is that they're an idiot or a
> stroke.
> Think about that the next time you meet a diver that is not familiar with
> DIR.  Instead of calling them a stroke or an idiot, try sharing (not
> telling) why you feel DIR is an effective system for diving.  Not a better
> way, a different way.  If the system truly is better, they'll see it and
> convince themselves that it's the only way to dive.  I look forward to
> eventually taking the fundamentals course.
> Dive safe
> Bruce Wyrwitzke
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