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Bill, you are mixing your metaphors here. "WKPP methods" were applied by myself and Sheck at Eagles Nest almost ten years ago and the cave only went a little bit further than it had already been explored, which was not even 2,000 feet at less than 300 feet - a simple open circuit dive. The issues with decompression, oxygen exposures and rebreathers in cave diving are well documented by the successes of the WKPP and EKPP as well as the horrific failures of alternative insanity like the type you mention here. The longest penetrations from cave openings are in the Woodville Karst Plain and the European Karst Plain, and have been done by the usual suspects - the WKPP and the EKPP, two teams which share common divers , gear and techniques. See websites of both organizations for details. In both areas the techniques are not at issue, but the opportunities are due to the infrequency of drivable water conditions. Far more interesting are the massive systems of the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico, where the most extensive surveyed underwater cave systems in the world are located, including the top three ,Ox bel Ha (sp) , NoHoch, and Dos Ojos. For information and diving progress on the longest one and others there, see the website of DIR Mexico, owned by two of the divers who are exploring it, GUE instructors Danny Riordan and Chris LeMaillot. Let me also suggest that for interactive discussion of cave diving, the cavers@ca*.co* list may be a better bet than techdiver. There are lots of cave systems in Florida and elsewhere that are relatively long, even though not of the magnitude of the areas mentioned above. There are also other lists that I don't know the names of or locations of which entertain all of the alt methods of doing this complete with the failure reports and excuses. -----Original Message----- From: BllFs6@ao*.co* [mailto:BllFs6@ao*.co*] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:15 AM To: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: Re:major potential cave systems? Hi all... In regards to my inquiry about potentially big cave diving systems.... My mind started recalling readings of long ago and I thought I throw these out.... Please forgive me if any "facts" given here are not totally accurate or even totally wrong....none of my reference material for this stuff is here where I am at...just going on memory here... IIRC the northern? plateau of the Grand Canyon is theorized to have at least the potential of major cave system(s)....but IIRC any potential entrances/sinkholes on the plateau are hopelessly clogged...however there may be some hope in entering such systems from the downstream end...ie diving springs in the canyon and pushing upstream.. I definity remember reading a few of Sheck Exely's(sp?) reports on diving a spring or 2 in the Grand Canyon...and I seem to remember that he ran outa air before he ran outa passage....now some of these springs are probably an absolute bear to get too....but with modern rebreathers the effort would certainly pay off a lot more than hiking in an 80 or two for a really wimpy push.. Another place that would be great for a rebreather push would Texas's Honey Creek Cave...it is a very wet "air filled" cave with around 20 miles of mapped passages...the cave only has few major branches so in actual extent is a very long cave....dry cavers pushed many short sumps..virtually all of cave is swimming passage... And I do recall an article where the last sump push was done by a diver and IIRC he reported that it was smallish but NOT anything tight, good vis, moderate flow, and stayed very shallow (15-20 foot max IIRC)....with such shallow depths, nice warm(ish) water, good vis and a tube that just keeps on going it could make for one darn nice LONG cave dive.....heck is so shallow you might even get by with pure 02 rebreather or at least a high oxygen content constant mass addition system for a compact simple reliable almost fail safe system....and no deco! My impression of the local geology is that the system will most likely remain shallow.... Now, I also recall Sheck mentioning a MAJOR spring in southern? Florida...massive flow.....but nobody could get pass the ungodly flow at the first restriction that occurred almost at the "entrance" or could be considered the entrance itself...I also seem to recall that a young diver (non cave cert?) died there when he was pinned against a boulder by the flow and lost his reg....anyone recall which spring this is? Has anyone breached the restriction? Is it time for cave divers to learn how to use "big wall" climbing techniques and piton/bolting gear?:) Then I seem to recall a few? systems in central/south Florida (Eagles Nest for one..?) where there WERE going tunnels...but their depth was just too much for just a quick peek...pushing 400 feet depth or more IIRC....have WKPP style deep techniques been applied to these systems yet? And as far as the WKPP...isnt there a massive flowing system south of Wakulla in/almost in the Gulf itself? Spring Creek? Then there is the "bolder zone" DEEP under Florida...probably wont happen in our life times but nice to dream about :) I grew up and spent most of my time in the Pensacola, Florida area....and I seem to recall from my many days of childhood sorta deep sea diving/breakfast chumming days of what local fisherman called "the edge"....now this is (I believe...) where the local underlying limestone? is finally exposed on the ocean floor...the edge was typically 10? to 20 miles out and the depth would drop very rapidly from 100/150 feet to another 100 feet or more....my memory of the numbers may be off a bit but I've always wondered if there were some major diveable springs out/down there....you could forget it in the old days....but with modern WKPP diving techniques there could be some damn nice stuff waiting for right person(s)... And my favorite potential dive site...Warrens Cave Florida....Florida's longest dry cave....almost five miles of tight hot dry crawlways and squeezes with the "back" pushing into the next ridge where another 20 miles could easily await...in the VERY back of this miserable cave is a big deep blue beautiful hole that continues underwater.....of course you WILL NEVER dive this site...getting to the back with nothing more than a tiny pack takes 2 hours if you are an absolute speed demon....4 hours one way is more the norm....and any thing longer than a shin bone or bigger than normal sized human waist aint gonna fit through the dozens(hundreds?) of tight squeezes/turns.... any comments on any of this stuff ? take care Bill -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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