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Wendell, my guess is that the buddy needs to be ready to surface the guy
after a seizure, but could try positioning himself so that he could hold the
guy's reg in if needed. On a dive where you would expect this to be a risk,
FFM's would be on hand, and what we do for "peace of mind", since as you so
accurately point out, stress and fear will potentiate tox, we have the
backup reg necklace tight enough so that if you go to the backup and put the
elastic up around the head, it holds that reg in place. Maybe it will work,
maybe not, but the peace of mind works.

Going to the lowest breathable PPO2 gas is the first move you make. The
problem with tox is that there is generally no warning, and it can occur as
much as ten minutes after you are no longer breathing the offending gas.
This is the genesis of that bullshit "off oxygen" effect. What we do, having
known about this for 15 years, is go to a very low oxygen mix for ten
minutes prior to exiting any habitats.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: wendell grogan [mailto:docgrog@ya*.de*]
  Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 3:18 PM
  To: George Irvine; The McLeods; techdiver
  Subject: RE: O2 exposure


  Along these lines, what is the recomended course of action if someone
finds themselves starting to experience oxtox symptoms, or if they think
they may have a dangerously high ppO2 exposure (for whatever reason)?

  Since stress reactions (read panic) and high CO2 levels increase your risk
of taking a CNS tox hit, how do you get out of the situation?  Another side
to this is that this is not a strictly a depth/pressure related phenomenon
so that getting to a shallower depth quickly is not a sure solution.

  Obviously, having an attentive buddy is a major factor, but the question
then may be what should the buddy do (assuming he is aware that something is
going wrong before you start doing the five fathom funky chicken)

  Wendell

   George Irvine wrote:

    Oxygen exposure has cumulative risks and spike risks, as well as
temporary
    and longer-lasting damage risks. The basic ways to minimize these is to
1)
    reduce ppo2 for longer dives while increasing helium content, reduce
    overall ppo2s for repetitive or multiday diving, including starting deco
    gases at a shallower depth than usual, 2) interrupting exposure with
breaks
    to a gas that gives the lowest breathable ppo2 on regular intervals, and
3)
    using the correct gasses at deeper deco stops to as to reduce the need
for
    longer times at shallower stops.

    Keep in mind that bends risk is in now way equivalent to death risk.
keep
    in mind that spiking ppo2s on top of an extended exposure to already
    borderline ppo2s is deadly. keep in mind that jumping to a high ppo2 gas
    deep is idiocy and absolutely unnecessary.

    Oxygen in higher ppo2s causes the body to try to defend itself, and
those
    defensive mechanisms include adding cell layers to the interface,
    vasoconstriction to reduce transmission, swelling of the lung tissues
and
    fluid accumulation to defend, and other immune responses, all of which
are
    counterproductive to gas exchange. These reactions onset within 12
minutes
    and in no more than 20 minutes to some degree or other. Preventing them
is
    easier than reversing them.

    When you 'toggle" the gasses back and forth, you are reducing these
    responses and actually increasing the ability to eliminate unwanted
gasses,
    while at the same time allowing brain chemistry to keep up with the
    stresses, thus postponing any critical event that might cause a tox.

    We do these things on a carefully prescribed basis. Only one of our dive
    sites allows for a habitat, and at that site we are merely able to do a
    higher ppo2 with a 12 on, 6 off protocol, then a 10 minute cleanup
break,
    then an ascent to the surface at 1 foot per minute on no greater than
50%
    gas for the first 12 feet. We have safety divers on each decompressing
    diver. We are also getting a huge advantage being in air for that part
of
    the deco, rather than in water.

    For the rest of our sites, we are doing conventional inwater deco. There
we
    really have to be meticulous about exposure. On any of the long dives,
we
    do the entire last step of a gas on backgas ( ie, the 120 bottle would
be
    used from 120-90 and then the 80 stop would be on back gas). We also
take a
    20 minute cleanup break at 50 feet on backgas and finish the stop on
50%.

    15 years of WKPP experimentation with protocol and gases went into our
    methods, and we validate them with bloodwork and doppler, not to mention
    results.

    Aside from Rule Number One violations, the most dangerous aspects of
diving
    are 1) driving to the site, 2) decompression on high ppo2s.

    Separately,---

    I see this drooling idiot JT has weighed in on the discussion. This
person
    is a total idiot, and so are his dive buddies. They want so badly to be
    recognized - well they are - as morons. They can't dive, they know
nothing,
    they have big mouths and big egos ( undeserved, they have no real
    experience, no methods worth discussing, no validation of anything but
    stupidity, and they are extremely dangerous. Avoid these people at all
    costs. My best advice, and you all know when I was last wrong about
    something like this - never. these guys are monkeys with an attitude.
There
    are only two or three of them left with the "captain", and my bet is
that a
    more serious form of attrition will eventually prevail.


    From: "The McLeods" 
    Subject: O2 exposure
    Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:11:32 -0300
    Now that all the bantering has ended,I have a serious question for
    George regarding O2 exposure.After following all of G's instruction on
how
    to deco properly,my deco's are going very well,I feel much better when
    getting out of the water.My question is this:when using O2 for deco,how


    -----Original Message-----
    From: The McLeods [mailto:rmmacleod@ac*.ca*]
    Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 5:12 PM
    To: techdiver
    Subject: O2 exposure


    Now that all the bantering has ended,I have a serious question for
    George regarding O2 exposure.After following all of G's instruction on
how
    to deco properly,my deco's are going very well,I feel much better when
    getting out of the water.My question is this:when using O2 for deco,how
do
    the cave guy's control their O2 exposure on those incredibly long
    dives.Using deco-planner for instance,it does not take long to exceed
max O2
    limits,even when taking into account the back gas breaks.How is this
    accomplished safely,aside from using a habitat?

    Randy

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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D472082011-07092002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Wendell, my guess is that the buddy needs to be ready to =
surface the guy=20
after a seizure, but could try positioning himself so that he could hold =
the=20
guy's reg in if needed. On a dive where you would expect this to be a =
risk,=20
FFM's would be on hand, and what we do for "peace of mind", since as you =
so=20
accurately point out, stress and fear will potentiate tox, we have the =
backup=20
reg necklace tight enough so that if you go to the backup and put the =
elastic up=20
around the head, it holds that reg in place. Maybe it will work, maybe =
not, but=20
the peace of mind works.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D472082011-07092002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D472082011-07092002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Going=20
to the lowest breathable PPO2 gas is the first move you make. The =
problem with=20
tox is that there is generally no warning, and it can occur as much as =
ten=20
minutes after you are no longer breathing the offending gas. This is the =
genesis=20
of that bullshit "off oxygen" effect. What we do, having known about =
this for 15=20
years, is go to a very low oxygen mix for ten minutes prior to exiting =
any=20
habitats.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> wendell grogan=20
  [mailto:docgrog@ya*.de*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 06, 2002 =
3:18=20
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> George Irvine; The McLeods; =
techdiver<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:=20
  O2 exposure<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <P>Along these lines, what is the recomended course of action if =
someone finds=20
  themselves starting to experience oxtox symptoms, or if they think =
they may=20
  have a dangerously high ppO2 exposure (for whatever reason)?=20
  <P>Since stress reactions (read panic) and high CO2 levels increase =
your risk=20
  of taking a CNS tox hit, how do you get out of the situation?  =
Another=20
  side to this is that this is not a strictly a depth/pressure related=20
  phenomenon so that getting to a shallower depth quickly is not a sure=20
  solution.=20
  <P>Obviously, having an attentive buddy is a major factor, but the =
question=20
  then may be what should the buddy do (assuming he is aware that =
something is=20
  going wrong before you start doing the five fathom funky chicken)=20
  <P>Wendell=20
  <P> <B><I>George Irvine <TREY@MY*.NE*></I></B>wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px =
solid">Oxygen=20
    exposure has cumulative risks and spike risks, as well as =
temporary<BR>and=20
    longer-lasting damage risks. The basic ways to minimize these is to=20
    1)<BR>reduce ppo2 for longer dives while increasing helium content,=20
    reduce<BR>overall ppo2s for repetitive or multiday diving, including =

    starting deco<BR>gases at a shallower depth than usual, 2) =
interrupting=20
    exposure with breaks<BR>to a gas that gives the lowest breathable =
ppo2 on=20
    regular intervals, and 3)<BR>using the correct gasses at deeper deco =
stops=20
    to as to reduce the need for<BR>longer times at shallower =
stops.<BR><BR>Keep=20
    in mind that bends risk is in now way equivalent to death risk. =
keep<BR>in=20
    mind that spiking ppo2s on top of an extended exposure to=20
    already<BR>borderline ppo2s is deadly. keep in mind that jumping to =
a high=20
    ppo2 gas<BR>deep is idiocy and absolutely
unnecessary.<BR><BR>Oxygen =
in=20
    higher ppo2s causes the body to try to defend itself, and =
those<BR>defensive=20
    mechanisms include adding cell layers to the =
interface,<BR>vasoconstriction=20
    to reduce transmission, swelling of the lung tissues and<BR>fluid=20
    accumulation to defend, and other immune responses, all of which=20
    are<BR>counterproductive to gas exchange. These reactions onset =
within 12=20
    minutes<BR>and in no more than 20 minutes to some degree or other.=20
    Preventing them is<BR>easier than reversing them.<BR><BR>When you =
'toggle"=20
    the gasses back and forth, you are reducing these<BR>responses and =
actually=20
    increasing the ability to eliminate unwanted gasses,<BR>while at the =
same=20
    time allowing brain chemistry to keep up with the<BR>stresses, thus=20
    postponing any critical event that might cause a tox.<BR><BR>We do =
these=20
    things on a carefully prescribed basis. Only one of our =
dive<BR>sites allows=20
    for a habitat, and at that site we are merely able to do a<BR>higher =
ppo2=20
    with a 12 on, 6 off protocol, then a 10 minute cleanup =
break,<BR>then an=20
    ascent to the surface at 1 foot per minute on no greater than =
50%<BR>gas for=20
    the first 12 feet. We have safety divers on each =
decompressing<BR>diver. We=20
    are also getting a huge advantage being in air for that part =
of<BR>the deco,=20
    rather than in water.<BR><BR>For the rest of our sites, we are doing =

    conventional inwater deco. There we<BR>really have to be meticulous =
about=20
    exposure. On any of the long dives, we<BR>do the entire last step of =
a gas=20
    on backgas ( ie, the 120 bottle would be<BR>used from 120-90 and =
then the 80=20
    stop would be on back gas). We also take a<BR>20 minute cleanup =
break at 50=20
    feet on backgas and finish the stop on 50%.<BR><BR>15 years of WKPP=20
    experimentation with protocol and gases went into our<BR>methods, =
and we=20
    validate them with bloodwork and doppler, not to=20
    mention<BR>results.<BR><BR>Aside from Rule Number One violations, =
the most=20
    dangerous aspects of diving<BR>are 1) driving to the site, 2) =
decompression=20
    on high ppo2s.<BR><BR>Separately,---<BR><BR>I see this drooling
=
idiot JT has=20
    weighed in on the discussion. This person<BR>is a total idiot, and =
so are=20
    his dive buddies. They want so badly to be<BR>recognized - well they =
are -=20
    as morons. They can't dive, they know nothing,<BR>they have big =
mouths and=20
    big egos ( undeserved, they have no real<BR>experience, no methods =
worth=20
    discussing, no validation of anything but<BR>stupidity, and they are =

    extremely dangerous. Avoid these people at all<BR>costs. My best =
advice, and=20
    you all know when I was last wrong about<BR>something like this - =
never.=20
    these guys are monkeys with an attitude. There<BR>are only two or =
three of=20
    them left with the "captain", and my bet is that a<BR>more serious =
form of=20
    attrition will eventually prevail.<BR><BR><BR>From: "The
McLeods"=20
    <RMMACLEOD@AC*.CA*>=08<BR>Subject: O2 exposure<BR>Date: Wed, 4 =
Sep 2002=20
    18:11:32 -0300<BR>Now that all the bantering has ended,I have a =
serious=20
    question for<BR>George regarding O2 exposure.After following all of =
G's=20
    instruction on how<BR>to deco properly,my deco's are going very =
well,I feel=20
    much better when<BR>getting out of the water.My question is =
this:when using=20
    O2 for deco,how<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
The =
McLeods=20
    [mailto:rmmacleod@ac*.ca*]<BR>Sent: Wednesday, September 04, =
2002 5:12=20
    PM<BR>To: techdiver<BR>Subject: O2 exposure<BR><BR><BR>Now
that all =
the=20
    bantering has ended,I have a serious question for<BR>George =
regarding O2=20
    exposure.After following all of G's instruction on how<BR>to deco=20
    properly,my deco's are going very well,I feel much better =
when<BR>getting=20
    out of the water.My question is this:when using O2 for deco,how =
do<BR>the=20
    cave guy's control their O2 exposure on those incredibly =
long<BR>dives.Using=20
    deco-planner for instance,it does not take long to exceed max=20
    O2<BR>limits,even when taking into account the back gas breaks.How =
is=20
    this<BR>accomplished safely,aside from using a=20
    habitat?<BR><BR>Randy<BR><BR>--<BR>Send mail for the
`techdiver' =
mailing=20
    list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.<BR>Send subscribe/unsubscribe =
requests to=20
    `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.<BR><BR>--<BR>Send mail for the =
`techdiver'=20
    mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.<BR>Send =
subscribe/unsubscribe=20
    requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <P><BR>
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  <B>Do You Yahoo!?</B><BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailsig/new/*http://finance.yahoo.com=
">Yahoo!=20
  Finance</A> - Get real-time stock
quotes</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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