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--part1_152.134daafb.2aa183b1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Andre, I agree with you that this forum could certainly be used to discuss diving more than it is. And I commend you for presenting your story about the problem you had while penetrating a wreck. I want to be careful about not making you sorry for sharing your story, but I'd like to ask some questions so perhaps I may understand the situation further. You said << ... I became completely disorientated and for 3 minutes I was lost and could not find the exit door out even though there was a fixed line. I held on to the line ... >> I'm having a little difficulty understanding what you are saying. I do some caving and have followed many lines in zero viz. If you were trained to follow a line then I don't understand why you would be lost while holding the line. It would point the way out. And if you got turned around, then by following the line back to some place that was familiar, you could determine where you were and get reoriented. (In caves we commonly use plastic line arrows to accomplish determining the exit direction.) So I don't understand what you mean by "I was lost." A second question I have involves your statements of << ... > >> Even though >> there is a permanent line fixed leading from the lower car deck to the >> engine room I still should have deployed my own line. I have learnt my lesson perhaps the hard way, and now I share it with you. Perhaps I > may make others like myself who think that being totally familiar > with a wreck doesn't mean you can break the fundamental rules of > penetration... >> > It is not clear to me exactly which is the fundamental rule of penetration to which you are referring, that you broke. Could you please explain further. I know of no basic reason to deploy your own line when there is already a permanent line in place. In fact I can think of several reasons for not deploying your own line, dealing mainly with the confusion resulting if several teams deploy their own lines in a confined space. Was there some problem with the permanent line? And if you became "lost" while holding the permanent line, what significant difference would having your own line have made? Andre, I really think it's worth our having this discussion and I want to ensure that the lessons we learn from your (really great) example, are the proper ones. And that we don't go off in the wrong direction thinking that we've learned what might be the wrong lesson. I do get the impression that you might have been able to benefit from some additional training in wreck penetration. I'm not trying to be too critical here, but from your posting, I get the feeling that you might not have taken all of the wreck penetration training that might have been beneficial. And so we might have a situation where you were doing a dive perhaps a bit beyond your training level. And this surely would be violating one of the basic rules of diving. So I agree with you that we need to study your experience to learn how we might improve our diving skills. But I suspect that the lessons to be learned may not be the one to which you alluded. I see two major lessons being demonstrated by your example. The first is to not dive solo and the second is to not do a dive beyond your level of training. But that's just as I see it. Take care and dive safe, Scott Some weeks it's just not worth the effort to gnaw through the restraints and scramble up out of the pit. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <A HREF="mailto:delamare@sp*.co*.cy*">De La Mare</A> > To: <A HREF="mailto:Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com">Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com</A> > Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 9:18 AM > Subject: Dive forum > > > I first subscribed to this technical forum because I believed it was a > place I could learn from others who have been diving a lot longer than I > have. > However, in the few months I have been on it I have realized that it is a > place where no one dares to talk freely about their own equipment use or of > the problems they have encountered during dives. > > Surely we are all in the same boat, we want to learn more from each others > successes and failures during dives. No one should be afraid to talk about > anything concerning technical diving. If during you dive last weekend you > encountered a problem this surely should be the place to talk about it and > share it with others, so maybe we can learn from each others mistakes. > > Clearly this is not the case at all because we are all afraid of that word > stroke !! > We all started from the beginning, strokes maybe. I myself cannot possibly > afford to buy all the correct diving equipment recommended by the DIR > philosophy which I strongly believe is the correct way of diving in this > new era. I have a none diving wife and two young children and diving is > simply a hobby to me. If I went out and bought all the equipment I believe > is best for my dives I would be a single man paying child support. So for > now I must contend to dive with some of my equipment being substandard > until I can afford the parts I want. > > Should I stop diving until I have every piece of equipment that is DIR > approved. I think Mr. Irvine might say yes, but I say no. > I will continue to dive but there are dives I simply cannot do until I am ha > ppy that I have the correct equipment to make my dives as safe as possible. > > What is really lacking in this forum is people talking about diving. Any > one who has made over 300 dives must surely have had near misses > underwater. Surely its not a perfect science. I for one want to be able to > read about it, so please lets stop being afraid of the Big Guns around here > who are ready to shoot us dead as soon as we admit to failure. > Two weeks ago I was diving on a wreck I have made over 200 dives on and > believe I know so well and feel so at home on, but I made a fundamental > mistake and broke two rules. I have no excuses for it and I should no > better. > I share it with you guys now and hope others may be less afraid to admit > their errors here. > I went solo diving and entered a wreck at 40m and made my way to the > engine room. I have been their at least 10 times and know the route well. > It also has a fixed line leading you there and back and is not too > difficult. During my dive there were about 40 other divers on the wreck all > tourists being led by dive schools in the area. > While I was in the engine room a group of divers entered one of the small > rooms that I had to pass through on my return to the exit. While they were > in there they completely destroyed the vis and when I came back into that > room I became completely disorientated and for 3 minutes I was lost and > could not find the exit door out even though there was a fixed line. I > held on to the line and repeated to myself over and over not to panic, I > know this room well and I know the exit is there. I did find it and I > survived but had I panicked I may not be here now. > Even though there is a permanent line fixed leading from the lower car > deck to the engine room I still should have deployed my own line. > I have learnt my lesson perhaps the hard way, and now I share it with you. > Perhaps I may make others like myself who think that being totally familiar > with a wreck doesn't mean you can break the fundamental rules of > penetration. > > I want to thank all those who answered my request for information on the > VR3. I found what I wanted to know. However thanks to some of you guys I > have come to the conclusion I have no need of this computer. My dives are > square dives, I need only the planner and a slate and a reasonable back up > computer. I will save my money and buy the HID 18 watt which I have long > coveted but never been able to afford. > > Andre De La Mare (Cyprus > --part1_152.134daafb.2aa183b1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi Andre,<BR> <BR> I agree with you that this forum could certainly be used to discuss diving more than it is. And I commend you for presenting your story about the problem you had while penetrating a wreck.<BR> <BR> I want to be careful about not making you sorry for sharing your story, but I'd like to ask some questions so perhaps I may understand the situation further. You said << ... I became completely disorientated and for 3 minutes I was lost and could not find the exit door out even though there was a fixed line. I held on to the line ... >><BR> <BR> I'm having a little difficulty understanding what you are saying. I do some caving and have followed many lines in zero viz. If you were trained to follow a line then I don't understand why you would be lost while holding the line. It would point the way out. And if you got turned around, then by following the line back to some place that was familiar, you could determine where you were and get reoriented. (In caves we commonly use plastic line arrows to accomplish determining the exit direction.) So I don't understand what you mean by "I was lost."<BR> <BR> A second question I have involves your statements of << ... <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Even though there is a permanent line fixed leading from the lower car deck to the engine room I still should have deployed my own line. </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I have learnt my lesson perhaps the hard way, and now I share it with you. Perhaps I <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">may make others like myself who think that being totally familiar with a wreck doesn't mean you can break the fundamental rules of penetration... >> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> It is not clear to me exactly which is the fundamental rule of penetration to which you are referring, that you broke. Could you please explain further. I know of no basic reason to deploy your own line when there is already a permanent line in place. In fact I can think of several reasons for not deploying your own line, dealing mainly with the confusion resulting if several teams deploy their own lines in a confined space. Was there some problem with the permanent line? And if you became "lost" while holding the permanent line, what significant difference would having your own line have made?<BR> <BR> Andre, I really think it's worth our having this discussion and I want to ensure that the lessons we learn from your (really great) example, are the proper ones. And that we don't go off in the wrong direction thinking that we've learned what might be the wrong lesson.<BR> <BR> I do get the impression that you might have been able to benefit from some additional training in wreck penetration. I'm not trying to be too critical here, but from your posting, I get the feeling that you might not have taken all of the wreck penetration training that might have been beneficial. And so we might have a situation where you were doing a dive perhaps a bit beyond your training level. And this surely would be violating one of the basic rules of diving.<BR> <BR> So I agree with you that we need to study your experience to learn how we might improve our diving skills. But I suspect that the lessons to be learned may not be the one to which you alluded. I see two major lessons being demonstrated by your example. The first is to not dive solo and the second is to not do a dive beyond your level of training.<BR> <BR> But that's just as I see it.<BR> <BR> Take care and dive safe, Scott<BR> <BR> Some weeks it's just not worth the effort to gnaw through the restraints and scramble up out of the pit.<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">----- Original Message ----- <BR> <B>From:</B> <A HREF="mailto:delamare@sp*.co*.cy*">De La Mare</A> <BR> <B>To:</B> <A HREF="mailto:Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com">Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com</A> <BR> <B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 27, 2002 9:18 AM<BR> <B>Subject:</B> Dive forum<BR> <BR> <BR> I first subscribed to this technical forum because I believed it was a place I could learn from others who have been diving a lot longer than I have.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">However, in the few months I have been on it I have realized that it is a place where no one dares to talk freely about their own equipment use or of the problems they have encountered during dives.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Surely we are all in the same boat, we want to learn more from each others successes and failures during dives. No one should be afraid to talk about anything concerning technical diving. If during you dive last weekend you encountered a problem this surely should be the place to talk about it and share it with others, so maybe we can learn from each others mistakes.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Clearly this is not the case at all because we are all afraid of that word stroke !!</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">We all started from the beginning, strokes maybe. I myself cannot possibly afford to buy all the correct diving equipment recommended by the DIR philosophy which I strongly believe is the correct way of diving in this new era. I have a none diving wife and two young children and diving is simply a hobby to me. If I went out and bought all the equipment I believe is best for my dives I would be a single man paying child support. So for now I must contend to dive with some of my equipment being substandard until I can afford the parts I want.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Should I stop diving until I have every piece of equipment that is DIR approved. I think Mr. Irvine might say yes, but I say no.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I will continue to dive but there are dives I simply cannot do until I am happy that I have the correct equipment to make my dives as safe as possible.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">What is really lacking in this forum is people talking about diving. Any one who has made over 300 dives must surely have had near misses underwater. Surely its not a perfect science. I for one want to be able to read about it, so please lets stop being afraid of the Big Guns around here who are ready to shoot us dead as soon as we admit to failure.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Two weeks ago I was diving on a wreck I have made over 200 dives on and believe I know so well and feel so at home on, but I made a fundamental mistake and broke two rules. I have no excuses for it and I should no better.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I share it with you guys now and hope others may be less afraid to admit their errors here.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I went solo diving and entered a wreck at 40m and made my way to the engine room. I have been their at least 10 times and know the route well. It also has a fixed line leading you there and back and is not too difficult. During my dive there were about 40 other divers on the wreck all tourists being led by dive schools in the area.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">While I was in the engine room a group of divers entered one of the small rooms that I had to pass through on my return to the exit. While they were in there they completely destroyed the vis and when I came back into that room I became completely disorientated and for 3 minutes I was lost and could not find the exit door out even though there was a fixed line. I held on to the line and repeated to myself over and over not to panic, I know this room well and I know the exit is there. I did find it and I survived but had I panicked I may not be here now.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Even though there is a permanent line fixed leading from the lower car deck to the engine room I still should have deployed my own line. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I have learnt my lesson perhaps the hard way, and now I share it with you. Perhaps I may make others like myself who think that being totally familiar with a wreck doesn't mean you can break the fundamental rules of penetration.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I want to thank all those who answered my request for information on the VR3. I found what I wanted to know. However thanks to some of you guys I have come to the conclusion I have no need of this computer. My dives are square dives, I need only the planner and a slate and a reasonable back up computer. I will save my money and buy the HID 18 watt which I have long coveted but never been able to afford.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Andre De La Mare (Cyprus</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_152.134daafb.2aa183b1_boundary-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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