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From: ScottBonis@ao*.co*
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:50:12 EDT
Subject: Re: solo diver cert
To: scubadeep1@ho*.co*, cobber@ci*.co*, joeldm@mi*.co*,
     techdiver@aquanaut.com
Hey Guys,

That last statement of John's is a beaut, in fact a classic as far as I'm 
concerned.  And IMHO, needs to be repeated in all discussions about solo 
diving.

<< I think about the guy who just died in the quarry, and I have to
believe 
that no matter what caused his death, one of his last thoughts was HELP. No 
one heard. >>

Take care and dive safe,       Scott

Some weeks it's just not worth the effort to gnaw through the restraints and 
scramble up out of the pit.


In a message dated 8/8/02 5:50:35 PM, scubadeep1@ho*.co* writes:
<< Jim,
I too dive for fun, and I'm either lucky enough to have good friends to dive 
with, or my lady love who does mix & cave & deep, and loves to dive more 
than me. (maybe) I guess I don't put myself into the position of having to 
dive in the situations you talk about. I think about the guy who just died 
in the quarry, and I have to belive that no matter what caused his death, 
one of his last thoughts was HELP. No one heard.

John Sampson
Phoenix, Az.

>From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>
>To: "JOHN SAMPSON" <scubadeep1@ho*.co*>
>CC: joeldm@mi*.co*, hughmoore@bi*.co*, techdiver@aquanaut.com
>Subject: Re: solo diver cert
>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:57:41 -0400
>
>I disagree. I dive for fun, and diving with someone who is an idiot or 
>wants handholding is not my idea of fun. Now I'm sure that there are some 
>out there who like to be a mentor, I guess I'm not one of them.
>
>Who has had this happen to them:
>
>-You ask your buddy "you ready?" "yes" jump in the water, go down to the 
>hangbar and wait for 10 minutes for your "buddy" to show up. When the idiot 
>finally shows up you he/she has to futz at the hangbar for and additional 
>20 minutes. Dive is shot.
>
>-You ask your buddy "you ready?" "yes"  jump in the water, go down to the 
>hangbar and wait for 10 minutes for your "buddy" to show up. He/she does 
>not show up. You go back up and your previously enthusiastic, very 
>knowledgeable "buddy" is sitting there saying that he/she had a last second 
>change of heart and decided not to dive. Dive is shot.
>
>(after a couple of those I started insisting that my "buddy" go in first).
>-You get to the bottom and one minute later your "buddy" is gone. You go up 
>to the surface and a while later your "buddy" shows up telling everybody 
>what a great dive he/she had. Dive is shot.
>-You are swimming along and your buddy shows you his/her gauge and it has 
>300lbs in it while you have  1500 in yours. Dive is shot.
>
>-Your buddy suddenly starts messing with his/her mask and then takes off 
>like a Titan rocket to the surface. You go up (in a more controlled 
>fashion), buddy is on the surface coughing and spitting. You drag buddy 
>back to boat. Dive is shot.
>
>-You get to the bottom and, after a few feet, you find out what "same 
>ocean" buddy system is all about. All you can do at that stage is follow 
>your "buddy" like a stray puppy dog and hope he/she can find their way back 
>to the anchor line. But they can't, after wandering aimlessly about for a 
>while they suddenly look at their gauge, spin around in panic and for the 
>first time look at you and single "wheres the anchor line?"
>
>After having all this and more happen to me I almost gave up diving but 
>decided to try going solo. Suddenly diving was fun. But at that time I 
>really had no clue about the risk. Now in technical diving there is a 
>slightly different thing going on. Your time is limited, everybody has a 
>different gas plan and different objectives, different computers, tables, 
>etc. Ever had a lobster hound as your dive buddy? Talk about a wasted dive.
>
>I also propose that there are some really marginal training programs out 
>there which are putting out divers who are a danger to themselves and 
>anybody near them. I want nothing to do with a panic stricken diver, trying 
>to claw my face off because they got some water in their mask or suddenly 
>felt claustrophobic.
>
>No, having a goofball for a partner is as close as you can get to turning a 
>fun sport into an expensive excersize in self-abuse. The key is either 
>having a regular buddy or getting trained by an agency you can trust to put 
>out competent divers who are buddy trained. DIR has standardized gases, 
>standardized gear and gear placement, standardized deco procedures, 
>standardized buddy procedures, all that stuff no other agency has.
>
>I'm not trying to be an advertising agency for DIR rather I  am trying to 
>seek a reasonable solution to this buddy thing. And the only one I see is 
>DIR. If you all have a better idea, I'm open. The "other guys" solution to 
>this issue is to put out "solo diving" certification. Pretty much sums it 
>up.
>
>    Jim
>
>On Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 02:37  PM, JOHN SAMPSON wrote:
>>Jim,
>>Most of the time I think your pretty dead on, but not this time.
>>In the sport diving world I would rather have a brain dead, just certified 
>>idiot to dive with than nobody. Your way if the shit hits the fan, & I 
>>can't handle it, I'm dead. My way I could still be dead, but maybe not. 
>>I'll take maybe anytime. On the tech dives, I dive with a good buddy or I 
>>don't dive. Hope you come back to diving soon.
>>
>>John Sampson
>>Phoenix, Az.
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*>
>>>To: Joel Markwell <joeldm@mi*.co*>
>>>CC: Hugh Moore <hughmoore@bi*.co*>, Techdiver 
>>><techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>>>Subject: Re: solo diver cert
>>>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:53:23 -0400
>>>
>>>Joel, lets do the math correctly here. One brain plus one half-brain = no 
>>>brain at all.
>>>
>>>In other words just the mere fact of 2 guys with scuba tanks hanging out 
>>>together under water does not make it a buddy team. Nor does it 
>>>increase your survivability one iota.
>>>
>>>A real buddy team must consist of two or more divers who have trained 
>>>together, worked out the problems together and dove together and have 
>>>practiced team skills, coordination, communication and drills.
>>>
>>>Please don't fall into the stupid, mindless rut that the "buddy" system 
>>>is today. It is worthless or even less than worthless, downright 
>>>dangerous. IOW take two random assholes, put them together and >>>declare 
them a buddy team as if  you are suddenly endowing them with >>>some mystical 
shield against all that's deadly. What Bullshit. You put two 
>>>half-assed divers together and all you get is twice the clusterfuck 
>>>factor.
>>>
>>>What does work is the GUE DIR premiss of training divers so that any 
>>>diver properly trained in DIR can get together with any other properly 
>>>trained DIR diver and function like they have been diving together as a 
>>>team their whole life. This is the only alternative. No other program 
>>>offers this sort of training. A DIR diver should either have a DIR buddy 
>>>or not dive at all.
>>>
>>>Currently there are not enough DIR trained divers to assure this 
>>>happening on every trip so you have to work at creating a functioning, 
>>>usable buddy team. You  have to work very hard at it.
>>>
>>>If you don't make this substantial time and money consuming effort you 
>>>might as well toss the dice, put the single bullet in the revolver, tie 
>>>the vine to your leg and take the leap. You may die, you may not.
>>>
>>>Solo is better if you decide to do the crap-shoot.  There will be no 
>>>witnesses when you croak and the coroner  can safely declare a "heart 
>>>attack" to satisfy the insurance underwriters.
>>>
>>>    Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 09:06  AM, Joel Markwell wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 8/9/02 6:57 AM, "Hugh Moore" <hughmoore@bi*.co*> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Whats the problem, when I lived in Papua New Guinea, I did hundreds of 
>>>>>solo
>>>>>dives off liveaboards/PNG Dive boats with my Camera. Crystal clear 
>>>>>water,
>>>>>mostly less than 20 metres, photographing & filming the marine life.
>>>>>
>>>>>In the mid nineties, operators requested that solo divers (read
>>>>>photographers) carry a Pony bottle in case while concentrating
>>>>>filming/photographing, ran out of air.
>>>>>
>>>>>Most photographers would spend hours under/near the boat getting >>>>>th
at perfect shot. You didnt have to go far!
>>>>>
>>>>>I havent come accross many "BUDDYS" willing to sit under the boat in 
>>>>>ten metres of water for an hour and half while you shoot off a role of 
>>>>>film on a unique creature.
>>>>>
>>>>>Maybe its OK with you, but havent seen it too often.
>>>>>So Im a stroke, stiff shit, I dont need a baby sitter to reef dive with 
>>>>>my Camera. I wore a pony for years, never used it once, didnt see a 
>>>>>need for doubles either for the depths we were doing.  Never ran out 
>>>>>of air once, after 90 mins, you are either out of film or battery was 
>>>>>flat on the video.
>>>>>
>>>>>Its not hard to look at the gauge. I dont need a buddy to tap me on the
>>>>>shoulder every five minutes to check my air!
>>>>>
>>>>>When doing a wreck/diving deep, you would dive as a group/with a 
>>>>>buddy.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hugh, South OZ

>>>>I've run into this mentality for years. I do UW photography too and have
>>>>spent hours just watching and the funny thing is, I've never had a 
>>>>problem finding a buddy who wants to spend long periods of time 
>>>>underwater. Not everyone needs to be cruising the reef as fast as 
>>>>possible, ignoring the small stuff, not really paying attention as they 
>>>>cruise by, faster, deeper, more macho. Maybe it's a Southern thang . . . 
>>>>
>>>>And as for your "safety" record, I'm pretty sure that every one of 
>>>>those solo divers who died while alone, before that final dive, would 
have 
>>>>touted their record of a string of "safe" solo dives.
>>>>
>>>>It's simple math. Two brains and two sets of eyes are almost always 
>>>>are better than one. When you read the accident reports that are 
>>>>available (and too few are) it's not hard to figure out that in nearly 
>>>>every intentional solo, eventual solo and unintended solo dive, the 
>>>>addition of a buddy would have increased the chances of survival 
>>>>immensely.

>>>>>I havent come accross many "BUDDYS" willing to sit under the boat in 
>>>>>ten metres of water for an hour and half while you shoot off a role of 
>>>>>film on a unique creature.

>>>>I'd get a new set of friends/buddys. I'm trying to picture guys/gals 
>>>>who'd say, "spend hours underwater with you examining a beautiful reef 
>>>>in close detail? You gotta be balmy!"
>>>>JoeL >>
--
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