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Jim, I too dive for fun, and I'm either lucky enough to have good friends to dive with, or my lady love who does mix & cave & deep, and loves to dive more than me. (maybe) I guess I don't put myself into the position of having to dive in the situations you talk about. I think about the guy who just died in the quarry, and I have to belive that no matter what caused his death, one of his last thoughts was HELP. No one heard. John Sampson Phoenix, Az. >From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> >To: "JOHN SAMPSON" <scubadeep1@ho*.co*> >CC: joeldm@mi*.co*, hughmoore@bi*.co*, techdiver@aquanaut.com >Subject: Re: solo diver cert >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 17:57:41 -0400 > >I disagree. I dive for fun, and diving with someone who is an idiot or >wants handholding is not my idea of fun. Now I'm sure that there are some >out there who like to be a mentor, I guess I'm not one of them. > >Who has had this happen to them: > >-You ask your buddy "you ready?" "yes" jump in the water, go down to the >hangbar and wait for 10 minutes for your "buddy" to show up. When the idiot >finally shows up you he/she has to futz at the hangbar for and additional >20 minutes. Dive is shot. > >-You ask your buddy "you ready?" "yes" jump in the water, go down to the >hangbar and wait for 10 minutes for your "buddy" to show up. He/she does >not show up. You go back up and your previously enthusiastic, very >knowledgeable "buddy" is sitting there saying that he/she had a last second >change of heart and decided not to dive. Dive is shot. > >(after a couple of those I started insisting that my "buddy" go in first). >-You get to the bottom and one minute later your "buddy" is gone. You go up >to the surface and a while later your "buddy" shows up telling everybody >what a great dive he/she had. Dive is shot. >-You are swimming along and your buddy shows you his/her gauge and it has >300lbs in it while you have 1500 in yours. Dive is shot. > >-Your buddy suddenly starts messing with his/her mask and then takes off >like a Titan rocket to the surface. You go up (in a more controlled >fashion), buddy is on the surface coughing and spitting. You drag buddy >back to boat. Dive is shot. > >-You get to the bottom and, after a few feet, you find out what "same >ocean" buddy system is all about. All you can do at that stage is follow >your "buddy" like a stray puppy dog and hope he/she can find their way back >to the anchor line. But they can't, after wandering aimlessly about for a >while they suddenly look at their gauge, spin around in panic and for the >first time look at you and single "wheres the anchor line?" > >After having all this and more happen to me I almost gave up diving but >decided to try going solo. Suddenly diving was fun. But at that time I >really had no clue about the risk. Now in technical diving there is a >slightly different thing going on. Your time is limited, everybody has a >different gas plan and different objectives, different computers, tables, >etc. Ever had a lobster hound as your dive buddy? Talk about a wasted dive. > >I also propose that there are some really marginal training programs out >there which are putting out divers who are a danger to themselves and >anybody near them. I want nothing to do with a panic stricken diver, trying >to claw my face off because they got some water in their mask or suddenly >felt claustrophobic. > >No, having a goofball for a partner is as close as you can get to turning a >fun sport into an expensive excersize in self-abuse. The key is either >having a regular buddy or getting trained by an agency you can trust to put >out competent divers who are buddy trained. DIR has standardized gases, >standardized gear and gear placement, standardized deco procedures, >standardized buddy procedures, all that stuff no other agency has. > >I'm not trying to be an advertising agency for DIR rather I am trying to >seek a reasonable solution to this buddy thing. And the only one I see is >DIR. If you all have a better idea, I'm open. The "other guys" solution to >this issue is to put out "solo diving" certification. Pretty much sums it >up. > > Jim > >On Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 02:37 PM, JOHN SAMPSON wrote: > >>Jim, >>Most of the time I think your pretty dead on, but not this time. >>In the sport diving world I would rather have a brain dead, just certified >>idiot to dive with than nobody. Your way if the shit hits the fan, & I >>can't handle it, I'm dead. My way I could still be dead, but maybe not. >>I'll take maybe anytime. On the tech dives, I dive with a good buddy or I >>don't dive. Hope you come back to diving soon. >> >>John Sampson >>Phoenix, Az. >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> >>>To: Joel Markwell <joeldm@mi*.co*> >>>CC: Hugh Moore <hughmoore@bi*.co*>, Techdiver >>><techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>>Subject: Re: solo diver cert >>>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:53:23 -0400 >>> >>>Joel, lets do the math correctly here. One brain plus one half-brain = no >>>brain at all. >>> >>>In other words just the mere fact of 2 guys with scuba tanks hanging out >>>together under water does not make it a buddy team. Nor does it increase >>>your survivability one iota. >>> >>>A real buddy team must consist of two or more divers who have trained >>>together, worked out the problems together and dove together and have >>>practiced team skills, coordination, communication and drills. >>> >>>Please don't fall into the stupid, mindless rut that the "buddy" system >>>is today. It is worthless or even less than worthless, downright >>>dangerous. IOW take two random assholes, put them together and declare >>>them a buddy team as if you are suddenly endowing them with some >>>mystical shield against all that's deadly. What Bullshit. You put two >>>half-assed divers together and all you get is twice the clusterfuck >>>factor. >>> >>>What does work is the GUE DIR premiss of training divers so that any >>>diver properly trained in DIR can get together with any other properly >>>trained DIR diver and function like they have been diving together as a >>>team their whole life. This is the only alternative. No other program >>>offers this sort of training. A DIR diver should either have a DIR buddy >>>or not dive at all. >>> >>>Currently there are not enough DIR trained divers to assure this >>>happening on every trip so you have to work at creating a functioning, >>>usable buddy team. You have to work very hard at it. >>> >>>If you don't make this substantial time and money consuming effort you >>>might as well toss the dice, put the single bullet in the revolver, tie >>>the vine to your leg and take the leap. You may die, you may not. >>> >>>Solo is better if you decide to do the crap-shoot. There will be no >>>witnesses when you croak and the coroner can safely declare a "heart >>>attack" to satisfy the insurance underwriters. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>>On Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 09:06 AM, Joel Markwell wrote: >>> >>>>On 8/9/02 6:57 AM, "Hugh Moore" <hughmoore@bi*.co*> wrote: >>>> >>>>>Whats the problem, when I lived in Papua New Guinea, I did hundreds of >>>>>solo >>>>>dives off liveaboards/PNG Dive boats with my Camera. Crystal clear >>>>>water, >>>>>mostly less than 20 metres, photographing & filming the marine life. >>>>> >>>>>In the mid nineties, operators requested that solo divers (read >>>>>photographers) carry a Pony bottle in case while concentrating >>>>>filming/photographing, ran out of air. >>>>> >>>>>Most photographers would spend hours under/near the boat getting that >>>>>perfect shot. You didnt have to go far! >>>>> >>>>>I havent come accross many "BUDDYS" willing to sit under the boat in >>>>>ten >>>>>metres of water for an hour and half while you shoot off a role of film >>>>>on a >>>>>unique creature. >>>>> >>>>>Maybe its OK with you, but havent seen it too often. >>>>> >>>>>So Im a stroke, stiff shit, I dont need a baby sitter to reef dive with >>>>>my >>>>>Camera. I wore a pony for years, never used it once, didnt see a need >>>>>for >>>>>doubles either for the depths we were doing. Never ran out of air >>>>>once, >>>>>after 90 mins, you are either out of film or battery was flat on the >>>>>video. >>>>>Its not hard to look at the gauge. I dont need a buddy to tap me on the >>>>>shoulder every five minutes to check my air! >>>>> >>>>>When doing a wreck/diving deep, you would dive as a group/with a buddy. >>>>> >>>>>Hugh, South OZ >>>> >>>>I've run into this mentality for years. I do UW photography too and have >>>>spent hours just watching and the funny thing is, I've never had a >>>>problem >>>>finding a buddy who wants to spend long periods of time underwater. Not >>>>everyone needs to be cruising the reef as fast as possible, ignoring the >>>>small stuff, not really paying attention as they cruise by, faster, >>>>deeper, >>>>more macho. Maybe it's a Southern thang . . . . >>>> >>>>And as for your "safety" record, I'm pretty sure that every one of those >>>>solo divers who died while alone, before that final dive, would have >>>>touted >>>>their record of a string of "safe" solo dives. >>>> >>>>It's simple math. Two brains and two sets of eyes are almost always are >>>>better than one. When you read the accident reports that are available >>>>(and >>>>too few are) it's not hard to figure out that in nearly every >>>>intentional >>>>solo, eventual solo and unintended solo dive, the addition of a buddy >>>>would >>>>have increased the chances of survival immensely. >>>> >>>>>I havent come accross many "BUDDYS" willing to sit under the boat in >>>>>ten >>>>>metres of water for an hour and half while you shoot off a role of film >>>>>on a >>>>>unique creature. >>>> >>>>I'd get a new set of friends/buddys. I'm trying to picture guys/gals >>>>who'd >>>>say, "spend hours underwater with you examining a beautiful reef in >>>>close >>>>detail? You gotta be balmy!" >>>> >>>>JoeL >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver- >>>>request@aq*.co*'. >>> >>>-- >>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver- >>>request@aq*.co*'. >> >> >> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com >> _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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