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From: Brwswe@ao*.co*
Full-name: Brwswe
Message-ID: <1a3.5dfafb3.2a72f7e6@ao*.co*>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:07:18 EDT
Subject: Doppler And Deep Stops
To: deco@de*.or*, tneuman@uc*.ed*, ryn@dc*.dn*.ca*,
sheffp@hy*.co* (Paul J. Sheffield Ph. D. (E-mail),
pbennett@da*.du*.ed* (Bennett,Peter), dorr@da*.du*.ed* (Orr,Dan),
v.flook@ab*.ac*.uk*, Beyerstein@ao*.co*,
rvann@da*.du*.ed* (Vann,Richard), jlivingstone@na*.or*,
jbram@na*.or*, p.oliver@na*.or*, ANDIHQ@ao*.co*,
Oxygenengr@ao*.co*, PSAuerbach@ao*.co*, rwhamilton@co*.co*,
Evincotter@cs*.co*, cborne@ea*.ne*, walt.jaap@fw*.st*.fl*.us*,
bturbo@ga*.ne*, dick@hy*.co*, mwells@in*.ne*,
pdenoble@da*.du*.ed* (Denoble,Petar), alexakos@gu*.co*,
trey@ne*.co*, iantdhq@ix*.ne*.co*,
moon0002@mc*.du*.ed* (Moon,Richard), emmerman@nb*.co*,
dave.dinsmore@no*.go*, boliver@sc*.co*, brianc@td*.co*,
gegstrom@uc*.ed*, kvanhoesen@uc*.ed*, Brylske@ao*.co*
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Peter and All,
Just want to add what I couldn't on last email:
5) -- medicol/bio guys put a lot of emphasis on Doppler scores, which,
by your collective and honest analyses, mostly do NOT correlate
with
observables That leaves us in the physical sciences feeling bad
for you, but
applauding your efforts and appreciating the complexity of your
task. We
all know in the physical sciences that your VGE moving bubbles are
probably not correlation bubble, but we don't want to dive with
high
Doppler scores if we can avoid it either. That some recent Doppler
tests underscore count reduction for deep stops is good news. You
did some focused tests, the tech diving community has been diving
such for the past 10 yrs or so in the real world, and the physical
science
community can furnish coarse grain reasons why all might work
(pus hard line equations that are predictive and very precise --
which
must go into Tables, meters, and computer software). Closure here
is
real fine. But isn't of great matter to the tech diving community
who
routinely use deep stops -- they know it works.
6) -- "anecdotal" may be a buzzword floating around about deep stops, so
join us in Tampa to see why deep stops are NOT anecdotal in the
real diving world. And also check out the "deep stop" trimix and
helitrox tables (NAUI Trimix Manual) used to train and certify
divers
and instructors over the past 4 - 5 yrs -- for real diving. And
meters,
incorporating all the basic bubble-plus-dissolved-gas dynamics
which
give deep stops on first principles, are just a hair away.
Others
which apply same dynamics to recreational diving, are already out
there and/ new ones will be released rather quickly . So if all
this truly
is ANECDOTAL, then somebody please redefine the word. Plus
there is hard core profile data. What I am saying here is simple
--
to borrow a time honored phrase from Uncle Bill Hamilton, -- WHAT
WORKS, WORKS. What doesn't gets trashed. Deep stops,
from all corners, WORK. Tables, meters, and software, the
tools of modern diving, attest to this.
7) -- the "halving" method for deep stops is OK -- but not
self-consistent.
There are better and self-consistent ways from full gas dynamics
to do this -- yes it falls out of model application.
8) -- when it comes to deco strategies, all data is useless without first
principle
hard line equational models. And it will also take forever to get
the
data from places like Duke, NASA, LANL. etc. So models are
the ticket -- with vaildation. In fact, models are the crux of
deep stops.
Thanks to everybody for throwing in their two cents -- hope to see you
in Tampa. All this will come up for discussion -- and from all quarters as
it should.
BW
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>
<BR> Peter and All,
<BR>
<BR> Just want to add what I couldn't on
last email:
<BR>
<BR> 5) -- medicol/bio guys put a lot of emphasis on
Doppler scores, which,
<BR> by your
collective and honest analyses, mostly do NOT correlate with
<BR> observables
That leaves us in the physical sciences feeling bad for you, but
<BR> applauding
your efforts and appreciating the complexity of your task. We
<BR> all know in
the physical sciences that your VGE moving bubbles are
<BR> probably
not correlation bubble, but we don't want to dive with high
<BR> Doppler
scores if we can avoid it either. That some recent Doppler
<BR> tests
underscore count reduction for deep stops is good news. You
<BR> did some
focused tests, the tech diving community has been diving
<BR> such for
the past 10 yrs or so in the real world, and the physical science
<BR> community
can furnish coarse grain reasons why all might work
<BR> (pus hard
line equations that are predictive and very precise -- which
<BR> must go
into Tables, meters, and computer software). Closure here is
<BR> real fine.
But isn't of great matter to the tech diving community who
<BR> routinely
use deep stops -- they know it works.
<BR>
<BR> 6) -- "anecdotal" may be a buzzword floating around
about deep stops, so
<BR> join
us in Tampa to see why deep stops are NOT anecdotal in the
<BR> real
diving world. And also check out the "deep stop" trimix and
<BR>
helitrox
tables (NAUI Trimix Manual) used to train and certify divers
<BR> and
instructors over the past 4 - 5 yrs -- for real diving. And meters,
<BR>
incorporating
all the basic bubble-plus-dissolved-gas dynamics which
<BR> give
deep stops on first principles, are just a hair away. Others
<BR> which
apply same dynamics to recreational diving, are already out
<BR> there
and/ new ones will be released rather quickly . So if all this truly
<BR> is
ANECDOTAL, then somebody please redefine the word. Plus
<BR> there
is hard core profile data. What I am saying here is simple --
<BR> to
borrow a time honored phrase from Uncle Bill Hamilton, -- WHAT
<BR>
WORKS, WORKS.
What doesn't gets trashed. Deep stops,
<BR> from
all corners, WORK. Tables, meters, and software, the
<BR> tools
of modern diving, attest to this.
<BR>
<BR> 7) -- the "halving" method for deep stops is OK --
but not self-consistent.
<BR> There
are better and self-consistent ways from full gas dynamics
<BR> to do
this -- yes it falls out of model application.
<BR>
<BR> 8) -- when it comes to deco strategies, all data is
useless without first principle
<BR> hard line
equational models. And it will also take forever to get the
<BR> data from
places like Duke, NASA, LANL. etc. So models are
<BR> the ticket
-- with vaildation. In fact, models are the crux of deep stops.
<BR>
<BR> Thanks to everybody for throwing in their two
cents -- hope to see you
<BR> in Tampa. All this will come up for discussion -- and from all
quarters as
<BR> it should.
<BR>
<BR> BW
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR> </FONT></HTML>
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