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Christina I do not feel at ease discussing what may be a bigger problem on his trips than mine. I will only say this, some of the things I do no one else can or should do on a dive. Dive bombing the Doria most any FL diver can do if it had good vis and was warmer, for me it made no difference. Other things I did during the dive you speak of they had better just leave alone. Also alot of things I do no one ever sees when it comes to safety or trying to protect someone. On the Doria trip that Charlie Mcgurr died on I was able to look around and see some nervous divers, he was one......crew..... diving with Gary the first dive to set the hook. Another diver who I saw as very nervous was later one of the buddies that went in the water with Charlie on his last dive........ I took the time while no one was watching to talk to this diver and calm his nerves. Was I the only one looking for these signs? Was I the only one who cared enough to talk with this guy, I was not able to talk to Charlie, I doubt he would have taken any of my advice, he was in full mode of coping the others with all that crap he had on him. After the trip was over and I was back at home I got this email below, it may help prove I was at least noticing things and trying to help. Things I do here all the time. Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 00:03:14 -0700 From: Reply-To: d@er*.co* X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-K (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: captjt@mi*.co* Subject: Andrea Doria Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey JT, It was good meeting u on the Seeker's Doria trip. Thanx again for talking to me before my first dive. It really helped to know that others had felt the same as I was feeling at that moment. We all want to be tough, macho heroes, but we know we can fall to the laws of physics & physiology at any time. I guess it's that human thing...you know. Take care and hope to make it down your way for a dive sometime. If u have a brochure, please send one. Will try your website, too. Take care, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx53 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, CT 06003-2867 In answer to some of your other questions.... >The last three "physical" items you mentioned are the question. Who >determines that? The captain? > Or should the groups chartering screen who >they bring? You can answer that, when you chartered the ML for the Doria, I saw no fat divers, no inexperienced divers, and only a few had too much gear on, yet you had an open spot and chose to cover the cost yourself........why? > This is why I asked you for a list itemizing these criteria - >how would you determine that you would not let them dive? You were on the >trip where one of the deaths occurred (this one also a heart attack). He >was a friend of mine. Would you have disqualified him from diving that day? NO, yet he would have fallen into one of the same rules I placed on you for the Ostfriesland. "If someone calls the dive for any reason, the dive is over for everyone in that group". You must all come up. That would have at least have given him a chance. No such rule was placed on the divers that day and it was a very loose buddy team at best. The Capt or trip leader can order this. Solo divers have no such rule and if you are new I do not let you dive solo, you must be very good for me to allow that or you do not get on any of my trips. >He looked like he was in great shape (and active in other things as well, >like being a champion skydiver). The Seeker asks you for medical >information, the Miss Lindsey does not. Unless you are tested as I am each year, you will not know your true condition......... >Danny has and does disqualify people from diving off his boat. I've never >seen him trying to "macho someone into doing a dive". In fact, just the >opposite with his pre-Doria briefings. Perhaps you think he doesn't go far >enough? You almost lost someone last year on one of the Miss Lindsey Doria >trips. Should that person have been disqualified from diving that wreck? >Who convinced them to dive it? Did they have the experience necessary to do >that type of dive? I fell to the pressure of a long time crew member, lots of experience they had, not the Doria kind..... that is what I did wrong, what I did right was only allow this person to dive 1 dive a day with Ike, Rick, or me...... thus they are alive because of the rules I placed on them. There is a difference between alive and dead. >Are you saying that solo diving should be prohibited now? On my last year's >Miss Lindsey charter to the Doria last year, who jumped into low-visibility >conditions (without the boat hooking the wreck) and tied the boat into the >wreck *solo*? Didn't that person spend most of the rest of my trip in their >bunk completely wiped out after that dive? ;-) What kind of unnecessary >risks did the person take on that dive? The Seeker would have never allowed >any of their mates to tie in solo, especially in those kinds of conditions. I have already covered some of this. The Seeker has no one that could do what I did on that dive, much less even attempt it. I did it twice........... >You are right about the deep Billy Mitchell wrecks.... I wanted to go >specifically with you guys because I like the level of support and planning >you had for those kinds of depths. For stuff in the 250' and shallower >range, however, I don't see a lot of difference in the way you run your boat >vs. the Seeker.... unless all solo diving is prohibited? Is that correct? I have already covered solo and I have already covered things I do that you do not see. I have others who work and watch for me underwater(give up their dive for anothers safety), some divers never even know they are being cared for........ Ask Dave or some of the others in our main group. >Finally, are you saying that Danny should be on the Internet as often as you >posting about both incidents and little mistakes divers make in an effort to >embarrass them? Don't you think that there are other ways of dealing with >that beside requiring him to become an Internet junkie? ;-) Not really, but the protecting of the stupid stuff divers do and then let them do it again is no good. The Seeker is a well run boat, the skipper is a good one, his people skills need work..... something does. No one is perfect and those deaths are not his fault, but the count is a bit high, don't you think? I will not answer anymore questions about what I think of the Seeker, you are they only one to ever ask me anything about it on this list. >Cheers, Christina > >-----Original Message----- >From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*] >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 9:32 PM >To: christi5@ix*.ne*.co* >Cc: christi5@ix*.ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com >Subject: RE: FW: Survey of NE DiveBoats re: GUE acceptance. > > > >At 12:45 PM 7/16/02 -0700, christi5@ix*.ne*.co* wrote: > >Hi Capt, > >I'm not sure how you can say that medical issues weren't issues at hand >that > >had a major contributing factor in the deaths. > >Christina >Why are so many divers having heart attacks on his boat, my guess is maybe >a few things. I have been on the boat only 2 times, so if my guesses are >wrong please let me know. > >There is little help in gearing up, if you don't ask for it, you do not get >it, ones ego will cause you to say I can do it myself. > >Lack of a good assist line to the anchor line during current. > >Poor physical condition. > >Too much gear. > >Lack of experience. > >Any combination of the above. > > > >My questions still remain unanswered. As the boat captain, what specific > >things should he do > >Care about his divers.......... enough to piss them off, enough to get to >know them, enough to tell them no, enough to expose them, become their best >friend,lead by example. > > >or require of the divers on these trips? > >Require them to give up their dive to save another, require them to not do >stupid things or you will tell everyone if they do, egos dislike being >exposed. >Remember the guy who got bent on your Carolina Trip awhile back, by >breaking the rules of the day and I exposed him to your private email >list.........has he come back, has he done it again? > > > > What criteria > >should disqualify a diver or group from being accepted on these types of > >dives, period? > >Keeps you off the boat.....on deep trips >Lack of experience is number one, lack of being a team player is two ( when >on a boat, like it or not, you are a team, don't think so.......let one die >and see what happens to the rest of the boat), unwilling to play by the >rules, past history of being a hotdog diver, places artifacts, gear, >ect.... above life. > >How did you get on my Ostfriesland trip? You were willing to do it my >way...... gas, buddy, everything......... you are no where near DIR....... >yet some of us are close and you fit in with us, why? My rules are of plain >logic and you understand it. > > > >Cheers, Christina > >www.christinayoung.com > > > >On Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:23:48 -0400 Capt JT <captjt@mi*.co*> wrote: > > > > > > > What level of > > >screening should / can the captain be responsible for??? What level >should > > >the groups chartering be responsible for? Already the Seeker requires > >medical > > > > > >information, more than the Miss Lindsey ever asked me for. Can they be > > >responsible if people lie about that, or should they have an EKG machine >and > >a > > > > > >nurse taking your collesterol reading at the boat? > > > >These are not the issues at hand and bare little in the deaths of the >divers. > > > > > > > You yourself have said in the past that they run a good > > >operation (requires you to fill out a dive plan, have a boat that is > > superbly > > > > >outfitted for those kinds of trips, etc etc etc). > > > >Yes, I said this. > > > > > Now you are saying that his > > > > > >operations needs to be updated, as well as his clientele. Can you >elaborate > > >on this? What specific items need updating and how, and how should he go > > >about "updating his clientele"? > > > >This is a hard thing to do, I did it when I took on the deepest trips the > >Miss Lindsey runs. In the past they had many close incidents. Even a death > >or 2. > >As long as you let divers do as they please, things will happen, as long as > >you let instructors, Trimix cards, and friends be your shield things will > >happen. > > > >When I began telling the truth of what divers did on our trips, they > >stopped coming if they were unwilling to change. You cannot dive to the > >deeper depths thinking you can leave your buddy, cut corners, have total > >faith in your RB without a back up plan, only care if the diver is not back > >on time ect........ ect......... > > > >Even now, when the boat is chartered by some, they ask I not be one of the > >Captains.........so they can do as they please, no one to tell what really > >happens. > > > >Everything that needs changing with the Seeker is within Danny himself, the > >way divers look at the dive will change because of him and no one else. As > >long as he does nothing on his present course divers will die, he must step > >up and say this is what you must do.........Let him get on a list or post > >photos on a site about the 3 going up the wrong line after they were told > >not to, and not tieing off, but drifting away, bash their ass, see if it > >happens again, do nothing and it will............. > > > > > > >Cheers, and I hope you can come up soon and dive, > > >Christina > > >www.christinayoung.com > > > > > >At Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:05:40 -0400 Capt JT wrote: > > > > > >--=====================_26101733==_.ALT > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > > > >Trey, I could give a shit what you or the other guy says, I checked with > > >the CG......... TODAY....... to be sure I was correct. I only must walk > > >300ft from my office to the USCG Marine Safety Office where I work, they > > >are stationed inside the shipyard I am employed at......... They handle >all > > >of the inspections for the SPV in this area.......... I discussed the > > >procedure for over an hour with them. Then I called and talked to the > > >pilots again in EC, NC......got the same answers they gave me at the >safety > > >seminar. > > > > > >Sure Danny sucks shit for lieing, everyone who lies does......... Sure he > > >has the worst track record for deaths........You are the last person I >want > > >to butt heads with, but I will not lie or change the facts of any event >to > > >suit personal agendas. > > >Clearly his dive operation needs to be updated as well as some of his > > >clientele. > > > > > >There are 2 kinds of Captains, those that have already had an accident >and > > >those that are about to. I have done everything possible to keep the >trips > > >I'm on safe, but that does not ensure it will not happen. Must I endure >the > > >same crap on these list if it happens to me and nothing I did was > > >wrong..........is that what you plan for me. > > > > > >The CG does not know jack shit about diving....... they know about boat > > >handling ect.......they rule over us Captains, cut and dry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > >"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the > >water" > >Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more > > Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ > >Email captjt@mi*.co* > > >"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the >water" >Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more > Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ >Email captjt@mi*.co* "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the water" Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ Email captjt@mi*.co* -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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