Mailing List Archive Mailing List Archive
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1B54B.988AEA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK George I agree As adults we should be responsible for all of our own actions ;-) In addition Instructors are responsible to ensure that students reach minimum standards for the level being assessed Training agencies are responsible to ensure that their instructors require acceptable standards from their students There are certainly some deficiencies in the latter two! However, my point is that all adventure sport is potentially extremely hazardous and that as an adult we should have the primary responsibility for our actions if we are jumping in the water on the Doria (or roping up at the bottom of the Eiger). By undertaking hazardous activities we have a responsibility (to ourselves and our families) to be well trained, properly prepared and have a clear plan before we hit the start button. If we get to the point where every time there is an accident - it is somebody else's fault - that will increase the number of accidents. If I chose to cave dive, that is my choice and it is my responsibility to receive the best training available and to dive within the parameters of my training, experience and physical capabilities. I look forward to your thoughts Regards Mark -----Original Message----- From: George Irvine [mailto:girvine@be*.ne*] Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 11:53 To: Mark Dixon; Paul Braunbehrens Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: RE: Diver Responsibility Mark, if you see a kid pick up a chainsaw.....My thinking is that most of you identify with the dead guy, or are instructors .......... -----Original Message----- From: Mark Dixon [mailto:jj@da*.co*] Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:46 AM To: Paul Braunbehrens Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: RE: Diver Responsibility I totally disagree - people must be deemed to be responsible for their own actions. If somebody undertakes a dive ill trained and / or ill prepared - that is their responsibility - period. It is not my or anybody else's responsibility to stop them undertaking the dive (though I may chose to offer my opinion). The day we have a higher body deciding which dive (or which ski run / rock climb / whitewater river etc) we can or can't do - then we are down the road towards a Soviet style regime in adventure sport. That does not represent civil liberty or the background of our sport. The US style lawyers supposition that their is always somebody else to blame , frankly, sucks! Regards Mark -----Original Message----- From: Paul Braunbehrens [mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 10:31 To: vbtech@ci*.co*; FLTechDiver@mikey.net; EANX@ao*.co* Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: RE: Diver Responsibility No argument there. Any reasonable human being should have stopped him, because it's the right thing to do. I am just a little concerned about trying to legislate "the right thing to do". John Mason wrote: ~ >Paul, >I am 100% for personal responsibility, and Chris paid the ultimate price. >But from the descriptions, I just get the idea Chris was a credit card and >as long as he is paying and signing waivers it is all up to him. I think >that if someone is as screwed up as Chris sounds in the accounts his >instructor and the Captain of the boat should have stopped him not because >they have to but because it is the right thing to do. > >John > >-----Original Message----- >From: Paul Braunbehrens [mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*] >Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:19 PM >To: vbtech@ci*.co*; FLTechDiver@mikey.net; EANX@ao*.co* >Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com >Subject: Re: Diver Responsibility > > >John, I don't think you are being naive. The people who took this >guy diving deserve everything they get, but it is important that dive >operators have some protection from lawsuits, and that is usually >where the waiver comes in. If you buy a beer because you saw in the >commercials that all the guys who drink beer get the girls, but then >instead of getting girls you become a drunk, do you think you should >be able to sue the beer company? At some point people need to take >responsibility for themselves, because if the law tries to do it we >are all going to get screwed. > > >John Mason Jr"." wrote: >~ >>JT, >>I agree Christopher Murley made the decision to dive signed the waivers and >>went diving, all his choice. I agree that you should be prepared for dying. >>You are also correct about families wanting to blame someone. Personally I >>think you signed, your responsibility, end of story. But in this case it >>seems that people had the attitude of he signed the waiver cash the check, >>instead of you don't belong here waiver or not. This may be a little naive, >>it is just my opinion. >> >>John >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Capt JT" <captjt@mi*.co*> >>To: <vbtech@ci*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; >><vbtech@ci*.co*>; <EANX@ao*.co*> >>Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:59 PM >>Subject: Re: Diver Responsibility >> >> >>> John, have you ever seen a Doria wavier from the Seeker? The one I have >>> states " I have been given the opportunity to review this document with >>> both my family and legal counsel." that is initialed and notarized long >>> before you ever get on the boat. >>> >>> We as humans will die as part of living, one must face the fact that he >or >>> she will someday die. Nothing will change this, that is reality. That is >>> why we make wills and prepare of families for this event. Those who do >>not >>> accept this fact will surely leave their family in debt and screwed. >>> >>> Often families want to blame someone else for this poor planning and to >>> relieve the burden and guilt they feel for not being more involved in >the >>> deceased persons life. Clearly, Lawyers have different reasons for >>> pursuing these cases and justice has nothing to do with it. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mason Jr"." wrote: >>> >Curt, >>> >I agree that personal responsibility is the key. However in this case I >>> >think some folks should have dissuaded this gentleman from doing this >>kind >>> >of diving instead of enabling it. It has a bit of moral/ethical >>messiness >>> >to accept money from someone who by all accounts should not be there >just >>> >because he signed a waiver. >>> > >>> >John Mason >>> >----- Original Message ----- >>> >From: <EANX@ao*.co*> >>> >To: <dell@di*.co*>; <trimix@ho*.co*>; ><aocfishman@ho*.co*>; >>> ><FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; <vbtech@ci*.co*> >>> >Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >>> >Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 2:14 PM >>> >Subject: Diver Responsibility >>> > >>> > >>> > > Again, another case of family members trying to make an excuse for a > >love >>> >one >>> > > lost. >>> > > >>> > > If you sign a waiver saying you accepts the risk involved then it >>should >>> >be >>> > > written in stone. All we need is one case being lost because of some >>> >crafty >>> > > (crooked) lawyer and all our diving could go to pot. >>> > > >>> > > Divers and their families need to start taking responsibility for >what >>> >ever >>> > > they get themselves involved with. If not, then maybe they should >>stay >>> >home >>> > > in bed, but then again they might sue the mattress company for bed >>sores. >>> > > >>> > > This includes all divers, no matter their physical fitness. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Curt Bowen >>> > > >>> > > Publisher Advanced Diver Magazine >>> > > 941-751-2360 Office >>> > > www.advanceddivermagazine.com >>> > > AdvDvrMag@ao*.co* >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Mailing address >>> > > Advanced Diver Magazine >>> > > 3115 48th Ave. Dr. East >>> > > Bradenton, FL 34203 USA >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Rule of Exploration >>> > > "Publish or Perish" >> > > > ============================================================ >>> > > To contact the list administrator, email >>> > > Mike Rodriguez at mikey@mi*.ne* >>> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a message to: >>> > > listserv@mi*.ne* >>> > > and in the *BODY* of the message type: >>> > > unsubscribe FLTechDiver >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ><< Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to >>VBTech-request@ci*.= >>> >com >> >>> >>> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in >>the >>> water" >>> >>> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more >>> Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ >>> Email captjt@mi*.co* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> << Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to >>VBTech-request@ci*.= >>> com >> >>> >> >> >> >><< Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to VBTech-request@ci*.= >>com >> > > >-- >Paul B. > > ><< Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to VBTech-request@ci*.= >com >> > > ><< Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to VBTech-request@ci*.= >com >> -- Paul B. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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