Mark, if you see a kid pick up a chainsaw.....My thinking is that most of
you identify with the dead guy, or are instructors ..........

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Dixon [mailto:jj@da*.co*]
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 7:46 AM
To: Paul Braunbehrens
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Diver Responsibility


I totally disagree - people must be deemed to be responsible for their own
actions.

If somebody undertakes a dive ill trained and / or ill prepared - that is
their responsibility - period.  It is not my or anybody else's
responsibility to stop them undertaking the dive (though  I may chose to
offer my opinion).

The day we have a higher body deciding which dive (or which ski run / rock
climb / whitewater river etc) we can or can't do  - then we are down the
road towards a Soviet style regime in adventure sport.  That does not
represent civil liberty or the background of our sport.

The US style lawyers supposition that their is always somebody else to blame
, frankly, sucks!

Regards

Mark



-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Braunbehrens [mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 10:31
To: vbtech@ci*.co*; FLTechDiver@mikey.net; EANX@ao*.co*
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Diver Responsibility


No argument there.  Any reasonable human being should have stopped
him, because it's the right thing to do.  I am just a little
concerned about trying to legislate "the right thing to do".


John Mason wrote:
~
>Paul,
>I am 100% for personal responsibility, and Chris paid the ultimate price.
>But from the descriptions, I just get the idea Chris was a credit card and
>as long as he is paying and signing waivers it is all up to him. I think
>that if someone is as screwed up as Chris sounds in the accounts his
>instructor and the Captain of the boat should have stopped him not because
>they have to but because it is the right thing to do.
>
>John
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Braunbehrens [mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*]
>Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:19 PM
>To: vbtech@ci*.co*; FLTechDiver@mikey.net; EANX@ao*.co*
>Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>Subject: Re: Diver Responsibility
>
>
>John, I don't think you are being naive.  The people who took this
>guy diving deserve everything they get, but it is important that dive
>operators have some protection from lawsuits, and that is usually
>where the waiver comes in.  If you buy a beer because you saw in the
>commercials that all the guys who drink beer get the girls, but then
>instead of getting girls you become a drunk, do you think you should
>be able to sue the beer company?  At some point people need to take
>responsibility for themselves, because if the law tries to do it we
>are all going to get screwed.
>
>
>John Mason Jr"." wrote:
>~
>>JT,
>>I agree Christopher Murley made the decision to dive signed the waivers
and
>>went diving, all his choice. I agree that you should be prepared for
dying.
>>You are also correct about families wanting to blame someone. Personally I
>>think you signed, your responsibility, end of story. But in this case it
>>seems that people had the attitude of he signed the waiver cash the check,
>>instead of you don't belong here waiver or not. This may be a little
naive,
>>it is just my opinion.
>>
>>John
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Capt JT" <captjt@mi*.co*>
>>To: <vbtech@ci*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>;
>><vbtech@ci*.co*>; <EANX@ao*.co*>
>>Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:59 PM
>>Subject: Re: Diver Responsibility
>>
>>
>>>   John, have you  ever seen a Doria wavier from the Seeker? The one I
have
>>>   states " I have been given the opportunity to review this document
with
>>>   both my family and legal counsel." that is  initialed and notarized
long
>>>   before you ever get on the boat.
>>>
>>>   We as humans will die as part of living, one must face the fact that
he
>or
>>>   she will someday die. Nothing will change this, that is reality. That
is
>>>   why we make wills and prepare of families for this event.  Those who
do
>>not
>>>   accept this fact will surely leave their family in debt and screwed.
>>>
>>>   Often families want to blame someone else for this poor planning and
to
>>>   relieve the burden and guilt they feel for not being more involved in
>the
>>>   deceased persons life. Clearly,  Lawyers  have different reasons for
>>>   pursuing these cases and justice has nothing to do with it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Mason Jr"." wrote:
>>>   >Curt,
>>>   >I agree that personal responsibility is the key. However in this case
I
>>>   >think some folks should have dissuaded this gentleman from doing this
>>kind
>>>   >of diving instead of  enabling it. It has a bit of moral/ethical
>>messiness
>>>   >to accept money from someone who by all accounts should not be there
>just
>>>   >because he signed a waiver.
>>>   >
>>>   >John Mason
>>>   >----- Original Message -----
>>>   >From: <EANX@ao*.co*>
>>>   >To: <dell@di*.co*>; <trimix@ho*.co*>;
><aocfishman@ho*.co*>;
>>>   ><FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; <vbtech@ci*.co*>
>>>   >Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>>>   >Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 2:14 PM
>>>   >Subject: Diver Responsibility
>>>   >
>>>   >
>>>   > > Again, another case of family members trying to make an excuse for
a
>  >love
>>>   >one
>>>   > > lost.
>>>   > >
>>>   > > If you sign a waiver saying you accepts the risk involved then it
>>should
>>>   >be
>>>   > > written in stone. All we need is one case being lost because of
some
>>>   >crafty
>>>   > > (crooked) lawyer and all our diving could go to pot.
>>>   > >
>>>   > > Divers and their families need to start taking responsibility for
>what
>>>   >ever
>>>   > > they get themselves involved with.  If not, then maybe they should
>>stay
>>>   >home
>>>   > > in bed, but then again they might sue the mattress company for bed
>>sores.
>>>   > >
>>>   > > This includes all divers, no matter their physical fitness.
>>>   > >
>>>   > >
>>>   > >
>>>   > > Curt Bowen
>>>   > >
>>>   > > Publisher Advanced Diver Magazine
>>>   > > 941-751-2360 Office
>>>   > > www.advanceddivermagazine.com
>>>   > > AdvDvrMag@ao*.co*
>>>   > >
>>>   > >
>>>   > > Mailing address
>>>   > > Advanced Diver Magazine
>>>   > > 3115 48th Ave. Dr. East
>>>   > > Bradenton, FL 34203  USA
>>>   > >
>>>   > >
>>>   > > Rule of Exploration
>>>   > > "Publish or Perish"
>>   > > > ============================================================
>>>   > > To contact the list administrator, email
>>>   > > Mike Rodriguez at mikey@mi*.ne*
>>>   > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a message to:
>>>   > > listserv@mi*.ne*
>>>   > > and in the *BODY* of the message type:
>>>   > > unsubscribe FLTechDiver
>>>   > >
>>>   >
>>>   >
>>>   >
>>>   ><< Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to
>>VBTech-request@ci*.=
>>>   >com >>
>>>
>>>   "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get
in
>>the
>>>   water"
>>>
>>>   Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
>>>     Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
>>>   Email     captjt@mi*.co*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   << Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to
>>VBTech-request@ci*.=
>>>   com >>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>><< Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to
VBTech-request@ci*.=
>>com >>
>
>
>--
>Paul B.
>
>
><< Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to VBTech-request@ci*.=
>com >>
>
>
><< Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to VBTech-request@ci*.=
>com >>


--
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