Jt, what you are saying here is not part of the real issue in this
situation. You , for one, would not operate a free for all. You also know
not to involve misfits and strokes.

Having said that, my point about this operation is that it is like shit to
flies. It is no accident that this is the preferred haven for the worst of
the strokes and those who want to practice up on a good SWBS.

Mike Kane put out the relevant facts here that tell the tale. Once more, the
boatmonkey dive instructor freeloaders were riding on the back of their
latest pigeon.

If we stop patronizing idiots and stop tolerating idiots, the idiots will
not be able to screw it up for all of us, or at least they will isolate in
one spot and be focused upon as idiots and as the problem. The practices and
track record of these people is unacceptable.


-----Original Message-----
From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 9:21 PM
To: trey@ne*.co*; vbtech@ci*.co*; FLTechDiver@mikey.net;
vbtech@ci*.co*
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: Diver Responsibility


I'm going to group a bunch of post into this one: So don't take it all
personal George.

George, for me getting on that boat was a one maybe a 2 time thing. They
had never even heard of me I'm sure when I first went. That is the case for
a great many divers who must travel to dive the Doria. I met all the
required paper work to do the dives, ON PAPER just like that HFS..... Until
I stepped on that boat that paper work is all they had, Trimix card to
boot. The wavier is just a piece of the puzzle to dive that wreck. Now that
I had jumped through all those hoops and traveled to dive that
wreck,  maybe even like some from across the pond ( many do to dive the
Doria) and if they(the boat) would not have let me dive once they saw me,
they would have heard from MY lawyer. And it would be  a bit stupid to ask
for a check out dive. Now I know you're going to say "they saw him dive
once and it sucked". Well, a lot of first time divers to the Doria
experience difficulties which are self induced and caused by the stigma
associated with the wreck. I have had it happen to me and seen it to many
others. You have not heard me defend the actions of the instructor, nor
will I....... That's a different story.

I notice all these finger pointers don't run a dive boat. IMHO anyone who
claims to have all the answers but ain't walking in them shoes, either
can't really make it work or doesn't have a clue about running a dive boat
business, its real easy to cast them stones from the cheap seats. Doing it
and claiming to know how to do it is 2 very different things. The next best
thing to not running those trips at all is to be prepared for an event IF
it happens, Plan on it Happening, stay one step ahead of the diver who may
make that HUGE mistake. Then when it doesn't happen BE THANKFUL, when it
does your ass is ready and you ain't caught with your pants down......

You should understand this from always pushing the buddy stuff, do you
really need a buddy, does JJ, Me........ answer that like you want, but we
both know the answer. But every guy who wants to see how big his balls are
ain't done what we have, thus there is a huge safety factor in Buddies and
that's why you push it so hard and it increases our own success. We each
practice what we preach, cause if we don't, the loop hole is there.

Also Pizzoi is correct about the CG report being very opinionated by the
writer, I pointed this fact out along time ago , just check the archives
the last time this came up. The guy who wrote that has an ax to grind and
has no experience in the field he is doing judgement on, is the Seeker a
professionally run dive boat, are they prepared to handle an accident,
should every dive boat be prepared to handle an accident, the answer is
YES, can the Seeker do better, SURE, we all can.......

Here let me put this out there for all you guys who are posting over this
and think the Capt should base what you look like to decide if you should
do a deep technical dive.

I want you to measure your chest and THEN your waist while in the relaxed
position. If your waist measurement exceeds your chest measurement then by
the standards of what is being posted on here for being fit to do the dive,
you should not be technical diving at all. Keep in mind I know what most of
you cats really look like and I'm not above posting a picture of you on
this list for others to see.

All you neophyte wannabe Captains out there posting who never plan on
anything ever happening on a dive are clueless, what your saying is we
don't need 02, radio, life raft or anything else on the boat because
nothing is ever going to happen while your on the dive. You guys are so
full of it ......... I don't care if I never have to use that stuff, but it
will be there and I will be prepared to use it........

I know you guys don't want me to dig out all those emails you posted about
the boats not having 02 on board and that's why the guy died and the boat
is to blame.

I've also seen several post about a HUGE dive to 400ft that has been in the
planning for a few years. Well, while you keep trying to figure out how to
plan or do it, I've already figured it out and DONE it. Each time I do it I
get better, because I do concede that something can go wrong. That is my
motivation to make sure I have all the bases covered, so IT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

I'm not defending the boat or any of that stuff, but the pictured being
painted may be different from the real deal.









     At 06:21 AM 2/8/02 -0500, George Irvine wrote:
>JT, if they go to all that trouble to get a waiver, why don't they go to
the
>minimal trouble of running their operation properly, and following some
>guidelines of reasonable behavior?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:59 PM
>To: vbtech@ci*.co*; FLTechDiver@mikey.net;
>vbtech@ci*.co*; EANX@ao*.co*
>Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>Subject: Re: Diver Responsibility
>
>
>John, have you  ever seen a Doria wavier from the Seeker? The one I have
>states " I have been given the opportunity to review this document with
>both my family and legal counsel." that is  initialed and notarized long
>before you ever get on the boat.
>
>We as humans will die as part of living, one must face the fact that he or
>she will someday die. Nothing will change this, that is reality. That is
>why we make wills and prepare of families for this event.  Those who do not
>accept this fact will surely leave their family in debt and screwed.
>
>Often families want to blame someone else for this poor planning and to
>relieve the burden and guilt they feel for not being more involved in the
>deceased persons life. Clearly,  Lawyers  have different reasons for
>pursuing these cases and justice has nothing to do with it.
>
>
>
>
>Mason Jr"." wrote:
> >Curt,
> >I agree that personal responsibility is the key. However in this case I
> >think some folks should have dissuaded this gentleman from doing this
kind
> >of diving instead of  enabling it. It has a bit of moral/ethical
messiness
> >to accept money from someone who by all accounts should not be there just
> >because he signed a waiver.
> >
> >John Mason
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <EANX@ao*.co*>
> >To: <dell@di*.co*>; <trimix@ho*.co*>; <aocfishman@ho*.co*>;
> ><FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; <vbtech@ci*.co*>
> >Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 2:14 PM
> >Subject: Diver Responsibility
> >
> >
> > > Again, another case of family members trying to make an excuse for a
>love
> >one
> > > lost.
> > >
> > > If you sign a waiver saying you accepts the risk involved then it
should
> >be
> > > written in stone. All we need is one case being lost because of some
> >crafty
> > > (crooked) lawyer and all our diving could go to pot.
> > >
> > > Divers and their families need to start taking responsibility for what
> >ever
> > > they get themselves involved with.  If not, then maybe they should
stay
> >home
> > > in bed, but then again they might sue the mattress company for bed
>sores.
> > >
> > > This includes all divers, no matter their physical fitness.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Curt Bowen
> > >
> > > Publisher Advanced Diver Magazine
> > > 941-751-2360 Office
> > > www.advanceddivermagazine.com
> > > AdvDvrMag@ao*.co*
> > >
> > >
> > > Mailing address
> > > Advanced Diver Magazine
> > > 3115 48th Ave. Dr. East
> > > Bradenton, FL 34203  USA
> > >
> > >
> > > Rule of Exploration
> > > "Publish or Perish"
> > > ============================================================
> > > To contact the list administrator, email
> > > Mike Rodriguez at mikey@mi*.ne*
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list, send a message to:
> > > listserv@mi*.ne*
> > > and in the *BODY* of the message type:
> > > unsubscribe FLTechDiver
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> ><< Send subscribe/unsubscribe/help requests to
VBTech-request@ci*.=
> >com >>
>
>"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the
>water"
>
>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
>   Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
>Email     captjt@mi*.co*
>
>
>--
>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the
water"

Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
  Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email     captjt@mi*.co*


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