I am in agreement with you and Motes. It is the usual suspects who keep
running up the score and ruining the game for all of us. It is so easy to
DIR, but the strokes keep trying it the hard way.

Sooner or later the concept of signing a release to enter a gunfight will
get blown out in court, and then the morons will have to try learning how to
run something other than a Star Wars Bar Scene, and that includes the
"training" agencies.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe [mailto:joe@po*.co*]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 12:14 AM
To: trey@ne*.co*; Dell Motes; chris cole; aocfishman@ho*.co*;
FLTechDiver@mikey.net; vbtech@ci*.co*
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: (another) diver death lawsuit


George

Diving is like any other sport.  You need to use good judgement.

You could get killed playing football and I'm sure everyone involved
recognizes that it could happen but no one expects it to.  If you have an
existing head injury, you don't play.  They bench you and any coach that put
you on the field would be in hot water.  Its the same thing here.
Conversely, if your coach is foolish enough to put you on the field, you
need to be smart enough to say no.  This instance was a little of both.




----- Original Message -----
From: George Irvine <girvine@be*.ne*>
To: Joe <joe@po*.co*>; Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>; chris cole
<trimix@ho*.co*>; <aocfishman@ho*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>;
<vbtech@ci*.co*>
Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: (another) diver death lawsuit


>
> Joe, it depends on who you are talking to. In my organization it is not an
> acceptable. But when you get the opinion of somebody who has been to court
> more times than he can count for wrongful death, his opinion is going to
be
> something like " I know I can get killed anytime... " and other such
> nonsense.
>
> Most thinking people don't go diving expecting to get killed.
Unfortunately,
> thinking is not an option for most people in the dive business, and I am
> sure they will continue to prove that. You should get Mount into this
> conversation since the lawsuit is not IANTD ( this time). I bet he says
> something to that effect.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe [mailto:joe@po*.co*]
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 4:50 PM
> To: Dell Motes; chris cole; aocfishman@ho*.co*;
> FLTechDiver@mikey.net; vbtech@ci*.co*
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: Re: (another) diver death lawsuit
>
>
> I would have to agree with you.  Death or injury is simply not an option.
> If that's what you think than you should sit it out and probably find new
> dive buddies.
>
> Conversely, this does not give license to employ unsafe methods or go
beyond
> the limitations of yourself, your buddies and your equipment.
>
> I don't think it is right to train a person beyond his own personal
> abilities and were I an instructor, I would figure a way to gracefully
> extricate my self from the situation.  In this litigious society we live
in
> I could also see the same defendants being sued because they denied a fat
> man his rights....
>
> Joe
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dell Motes <dell@di*.co*>
> To: chris cole <trimix@ho*.co*>; <aocfishman@ho*.co*>;
> <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; <vbtech@ci*.co*>
> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:47 AM
> Subject: Re: (another) diver death lawsuit
>
>
> > Hey there Chris,
> > I, for one, was never taught that death was a real possibility. I would
> find
> > it un-acceptable as being on my list of possible occurences to prepare
for
> > during a dive.
> > After many years of experience, it continues to be un-acceptable to me.
> > Several years ago, more than one friend told me of this being stated
> during
> > a particular project. Something to the effect that, "this is so risky,
> that
> > odds are someone will not survive".
> > That works to sell movies, but anyone that accepts that as normal SOP is
> not
> > on the same page as I am. That is absolutely ludicrus to continue
planning
> > death as a factor in logistics, or any undertaking for that matter.
> > It has and will continue to happen, but I do not consider it acceptable
at
> > any level of play.
> > Maybe I could be considered a coward by some, but I don't subscribe to
the
> > daredevil stuff.
> > I plan to make it home when I 'm done, and I don't mind telling anybody
> I'm
> > diving with what they need to hear in order for me to meet my goals.
> > Best Regards,
> > Dell Motes
> > Research & Development
> > Dive Rite
> > 117 West Washington Street
> > Lake City, Florida 32055
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "chris cole" <trimix@ho*.co*>
> > To: <aocfishman@ho*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>;
> > <vbtech@ci*.co*>
> > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: (another) diver death lawsuit
> >
> >
> > > FOR WHAT ITS WORTH!
> > >
> > > Tec Diving is an inherently dangerous sport in which we all were
taught
> > that
> > > DEATH is a real possibility. It should not be up to a dive boat to
play
> > > mother to any level of diver and certainly not to a trained Tec diver.
> > Yes,
> > > the instructor should accept some responsibility for certifying a
person
> > > that is obviously out of shape. I am an IT for IANTD and have had
> several
> > > occasions where overweight, people have come to me for Tec training, I
> am
> > > very hard on my students, both physically and mentally, the joke is
that
> > if
> > > you survive my classes that there isn't much that you have to worry
> about
> >
> > > later. Yes, I am prejudice against those I view to be not fit for
> diving.
> > I
> > > am even harder on them.
> > > If you are over weight, not medically fit, or not psychologically fit
> than
> > > do us all a favor. DON'T DIVE! I, quite frankly don't care if you kill
> > > yourself, but you endanger all those who dive with you as well as the
> > > freedom we have from governmental intervention.
> > >
> > >                                        Chris Cole
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
> > >
> > > ============================================================
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>
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