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I have to say that reading the outpourings of self-opinionated bile that appears on sites like Aquanaut has made me rather sad. Like virtually all UK cave divers, I am a caver who learnt to dive, and I am still an active cave explorer as well as cave diver. I have never dived in the sea, and if I were to do so would consider myself a complete novice, having had no experience of open water diving. I have however safely completed hundreds of cave dives, usually in pretty poor conditions. The type of cave diving we do here in the UK seems to have been exhaustively covered, so I'll not get into a 'look how hard we are' argument. One thing I've always liked about cavers and cave divers is their readiness to look, listen, and learn from each other. I've never paid for any sort of course but have managed to get by, and with some success, having pushed several sites considered 'unpushable' by others. If anyone ever shows an interest in the techniques and gear I use, I'm more than happy to share my opinions with them -after all, that's how I learnt a lot of what I do- but I don't ram it down their throats. If they think I'm talking rubbish, then that's fine. If they explain why their ideas are better I'm more than happy to listen and if they convince me I'll be the first to thank them. When I first started diving, I read books like 'The Darkness Beckons' and marvelled at the exploits of the 'greats' of cave diving. A few years on, and I've met and even dived with some of them -a great privilage- and have learnt some valuable lessons. The most valuable is 'don't take anyone's word for it.' That is, look at what and why they do what they do, but if you can't see the sense in it, then don't do it just because they say it's good. It's your life, and you answer only to yourself. I have dived with both Reinhart and Olivier, they have very different approaches, at least now that Reinhart is 'Doing It Right' and both have been successful. Interestingly, in many ways I think that Olivier has more in common with you than Reinhart (who has embraced DIR) The WKPP have developed their own equipment and techniques as a thoughtful responseto their requirements, just like Olivier has been doing for over 20 years. If the WKPP had just 'bought into' someone else's philosophy, where would they be ? Like many, I have enormous respect for the accomplishments of the WKPP, but this does not mean I consider anyone not 'doing it right' to be a moron, or a stroke (whatever that is) I would not presume to give advice on the type of diving you do; without learning a lot more than I do now I would not be capable of this type of diving. However, without learning a lot, I can assure you that you would not be capable of the type of diving I do...I doubt you have the skills and experience to make it into the water, let alone under it. So, does that make me or you the 'better' diver ? Of course, it's a stupid question, I do what I do, and you do what you do (and I suspect that's how it will stay !) but please, dont call me dumb, or comment on my 'stroke' techniques. To simply look at some statistics and say they prove that our methods are crap is a bit like me looking at U.S. statistics and saying that all American divers must be useless. Sure, the CDG has lost some divers; but we have been around since 1946 after all !, and even the WKPP must admit that we may have had a hand in some of the fundamentals (like the thirds rule ? redundancy ?) The WKPP is a comparatively young organisation, and I assume that many of the 'old hands' who formed the group did so as a response to bad techniques in use at the time ? Not so different from us then... I find much of what you have to say interesting, but simply dismissing people as morons, and insulting them, does you no service. Argue me into the ground if you can, but resort to insults and I just go for the delete button. If I turned up in florida with my 'little' side mounted tanks, helmet, and 'crap' lights I'd be laughed at and perhaps soon dead. If you turned up at Gaping Gill with your gear, several things would happen. 1/ The walk with all that kit would kill you ! 2/ you'd need lots of friends to get you and your gear down the cave, 3/in the sump, you'd bang your head, get nowhere with your back mounts in the low passage, your lights would be smothered by the crap vis, and your long hose would catch on something and throttle you ! Yes, I've read the stuff, and I know you don't just dive in Wakulla like passage...but honestly, you would not do very well ! So, back to the same point, does that make me or you the better diver ? As has been said, what we wrote for the CDG site was a response to increasing interest from open water divers in UK cave diving. Going on a holiday to Mexico, Florida etc really does not prepare you for UK conditions. There are only three of four dive sites here that they could physically get to without caving experience, and in the water they would likely kill themselves pretty quickly. There are a whole load of issues they (and you) know nothing of, and these people need protecting from themselves, and some unscrupulous 'instructors' with little knowledge or real experience, and only an interest in making a quick buck on the back of a passing fashion or a vicarious thrill. Those of us with a long standing passion and deep commitment to caving and cave diving don't want these folks to kill themselves (and screw up our delicate access agreements). We weren't bad mouthing anyone, just making an ironic point; Even divers of the highest calibre, out of their usual environment, are no better than any other novice. We used the WKPP as an example; even divers of their talents and experience would be 'out of their depth' so what hope for your average scooby doo ? Yours respectfully (and perhaps receiving a little respect ?) David Ryall Northern Section, Cave Diving Group (and Bradford Pothole Club) By the way, had a play with an HID light the other day...just GOT to get me one of them ! Think I might make my own (helmet mountable, of course!) :-) -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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