Joel,

I appreciate your candid response to all of this. And I too am tired of the
whole thread. I will answer your questions below.

Joel Markwell wrote:

> What a tiresome load of crap. More People-Who-Hate-George . . . .
>
> Chuck, if you actually had the "evidence" of Trey's lies then why didn't you
> present it up front?

My evidence is in the form of testimony from Jonathan's family, physician, and
closest friends. These are the only people who are privy to the NEDU's report
and the Medical Examiner's report.

> What you wrote and have written to date is not
> evidence, it's hearsay and your opinion.

The lead investigator and IUCRR representative (Scott Hunsucker) has stated
repeatedly that he will release the findings as soon as the NEDU makes them
available to non-family officials.

> My impression is that you appear to believe that Jonathan was still an
> active WKPP, cleared to dive by George.

All I can state is that Jonathan's medical condition was unknown to Jonathan's
mentor (WKPP Training Director) and to the IUCRR Investigator (WKPP Medical
Director) based on their public statements.

> Yet, according to George, he was not
> an active, cleared diver and no one on his team told anyone that Gol was
> cleared and that they must have heard that from Jonathan, not anyone on the
> team.

Jonathan was planning to dive Wakulla. That is why I doubt he had been informed
of any ineligibility.

> Do you have any evidence that Jonathan had categorically been cleared
> to dive with the WKPP other than Jonathan's word? You keep referring to a
> "roster", where did they see this roster?

Try clicking on http://www.gue.com/research/wkpp/forms/roster_apr20011.pdf
This "team roster" was still active as of 12/17/01.

> If your evidence on this is that someone told you from inside the WKPP. I've
> been involved in a lot of volunteer groups over the years and it's very
> common for the "word" to be the opposite of what the reality is. Unless
> Jonathan was cleared by Trey and you heard it from him, then it's reasonable
> to assume that he was not cleared to dive with the team. I can't see any way
> you can prove it unless you can show where Trey sent Jonathan a note saying
> when and where he was diving. Anything else is hearsay.

You are correct. I cannot prove that Jonathan had George's specific approval.
All I can state as fact is that any prohibition from participation was not
generally know among his peer-level teammates.

> I also note that you are claiming that George raises the non-DIR, BS flag on
> other diving deaths when the report comes back that they died of a "heart
> attack," the catch-all cause of death in techdiving these days, yet because
> Jonathan was at one time at least a WKPP member and died on a cave dive that
> George is a hypocrite for claiming that Jonathan's death was health-related.

That's not my argument, but I'd have to agree with it.

> It's now well known, largely thanks to this discussion, that Jonathan was
> gravely ill. And the assumption among all those I had spoken with, including
> a close friend of Jonathan's, was that he probably died of an overpressure
> injury that was probably related to his illness

You're obviously out of the loop. Call one of your closest dive buddies who
lives on the west side of Houston in a new house and get the facts.

> and that he had probably
> returned to diving too soon (any time the fallout from an illness kills you,
> you returned too soon). Isn't that exactly what Trey was saying right up to
> the day you started into your attack? Where exactly is the hypocrisy you're
> talking about?

I have said all along that Jonathan's performance was compromised due to the
fact that he hadn't been in the water for months and because of the residual
effects of his prior illness. But to say that he died of a "massive brain
hemorrhage" is unconscionable.

> It seems to me from reading all of this thread on Techdiver that you are
> trying to score points against George, not to intelligently discuss this
> incident.

George's posts continually attack me personally while I simply state the facts.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE WKPP OR DIR. - JONATHAN VIOLATED DIR. I only want the
facts to be know so that perhaps somebody might LEARN SOMETHING from all of
this.

> And NO ONE has satisfactorily explained why the hell he had (if he
> had) a bottle of 100% helium, can you?

Absolutely. And this is where I believe the community can learn something.
Jonathan never liked returning storage bottles to the gas supplier with any
residual helium (since helium is so expensive). It was not unusual for him to
transfer the last 300-500 psi of gas into empty stage bottles with the intention
of topping them later. He would mark these bottles with tape of their contents.
Earlier in the summer Jonathan had done just this, and one of the cylinders was
an aluminum 40. In his haste to prepare and leave on a dive trip he grabbed the
aluminum 40 (a cylinder type he commonly used for O2 decompression) forgetting
that it DID NOT contain oxygen. At the dive site its pressure was checked and at
least four other divers discussed with him the fact that it only had 500 psi. He
determined that 500 psi was plenty of gas to complete his planned dive. When
recovered the bottle was fitted with a D400 second stage (which he would not use
as a stage regulator due to its design).

> And aren't YOU jumping the gun with a
> report that is apparently not complete?

Absolutely, I'm jumping the gun! I NEVER wanted to discuss this publicly prior
the the public-release of the NEDU report. Even though this was discussed
privately among the interested parties, everybody remained "hush" about the
"facts" surrounding his death. Only when George started making the absurd
statements regarding "massive brain hemorrhage" did I feel it necessary to
present the facts publicly.

> And if that is true, how does that make George a liar about the health
> concerns when that was what was being reported by anyone "in the know" like
> yourself up until a few days ago -- unless the person I was speaking with
> was lying or hiding things from me, which I doubt.

Jonathan certainly had "health concerns" and we all agree that he was probably
in no shape to be doing decompression dives. I can't help but believe that his
health played a role in his "breathing a hypoxic mix" at deco. He never would
have made that mistake if he had been "on top of his game". But still, to say
that somebody died of a "massive brain hemorrhage" when they actually went
hypoxic due to misplacing helium in their deco cylinder is wrong (and a lie).

> I don't get it. I think if JJ's the head of the WKPP and there's no George,
> Chuck and Rich don't blame the WKPP or refer to this as a WKPP accident.

Even with George at the helm "THIS IS NOT A WKPP ACCIDENT"!!! I have never said
it was, and I've gone to great lengths to state that this had nothing to do with
the WKPP. George is the one who is defensive here.

> It just looks like a vendetta against a guy whom they hate.

I don't hate George and haven't spoken (or written) a word about him in two
years.

> George is often an
> asshole about these things, yes. He's insensitive, yes. But how is this
> suddenly a WKPP problem?

IT'S NOT A WKPP PROBLEM. I still don't understand why George feels the need to
lie about it.

> This wasn't a WKPP-sponsored dive was it?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

> Finally, it's just more of the BS that I hate about cave diving. We have one
> group that is objectively the most successful cave diving exploration group
> in the world with a brash, abrasive and irritating leader with absolutely no
> online manners (a common condition, BTW) and yet who promotes safety and
> effective diving techniques that almost everyone agrees, work.

I wholeheartedly agree with the DIR methods, and applaud the WKPP's
accomplishments. I've said this all along.

> On the other hand we have a guy or group of guys who have an axe to grind.

No ax to grind here.

> That doesn't mean you're exaggerating or lying or jumping to conclusions,
> but it sounds bad.

It IS difficult to disagree publicly with someone of George's stature, but I owe
that to Jonathan and the community.

> Maybe everything you say IS honest and correct and
> presented with the best of intentions,

And meanwhile the messenger (me) is getting hammered. Still I must state the
truth.

> but by getting into a petty,
> profanity-laced argument

I was wrong for using abusive language or profanity in my posts, but I have
refused to attack George personally. He has tried to discredit me in any way
possible; all I care about is presenting the errors in his statements.

> online without any real proof other than your word,
> you make it impossible for anyone who might be neutral in this discussion to
> believe you. If you're right, you screwed-up.

In absence of more of George's misrepresentations I will await the final public
report of the NEDU to support my statements. I too am weary of the whole affair.

> For myself, I prefer an effective asshole over a friendly incompetent where
> things like cave diving are concerned. My skydiving instructor was an
> asshole and so was my karate instructor. That's probably why I liked the
> Patton figure so much. He was an overbearing ass, but he's the ass you'd
> call when you have Germans in your backyard.

Fine.

> If you guys really have anything solid to add other than bitching at George
> then let's hear it, but this carping at George when there appears to be
> nothing to gain except maybe proving that he's an jerk (or that you are) is
> a complete and utter waste of time.

As I stated before, as long as George discontinues to post that Jonathan "died
of a massive brain hemorrhage" or that he had HIV or AIDS (or something
similarly ridiculous), I am through posting until the NEDU report is released
publicly.

> You want to flush out a liar, ask the folks over at the CDS or the IUCRR why
> it is that over a year ago they publicly made a promise to me on these lists
> (Cavers, I think) to release the diving accident data that Jeff Bozanic has
> been sitting on for years to the public.

Good question.

> That never happened, despite nearly
> daily efforts and reminders of that promise: NADA. That's something that
> could actually do some good, a searchable database of cave diving accidents
> that cave divers could refer to for safety info. What a great learning tool
> that could be. Wouldn't that be a good use of your energies instead of this
> Holy Grail search for proof that GIII is a liar?

We have similar motives. I don't care that it was George making the false
statements about Jonathan; I would have rebutted any such statements from any
individual. It was merely coincidence that George was the one making the false
statements.

> And if he is, so what? Are the lies relevant?

Yes. People need to learn from Jonathan's death.
1) Do not put helium in bottles indiscriminately.
2) Do not use bottles that are not marked properly.
3) Analyze everything (even oxygen).
4) Do not rush to resume diving following a serious illness.
5) Do not rush to do ANY dive. Take your time; be methodical.

> The only thing that is
> relevant is whether or not you'd trust GIII in a water-filled cave with you
> and I can answer that one easily.

That's about the ONLY place I would trust him.<g>

> There is a real lack of focus on this list. We have a dead diver and you
> guys are arguing personalities. George engages in hyperbole, gee, you guys
> really blew the lid off that one, congratulations!

I hope you understand this affair more completely now Joel. George's
contributions to diving far outweigh anything I will ever contribute, but still
that does not give him the right to misrepresent the facts surrounding
Jonathan's death. Let everyone know the truth, and let them learn from it. This
doesn't have to be a black eye for the WKPP because it has nothing to do with
the WKPP.

Chuck

> JoeL

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