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That's reasonable. It gets back to the original question about if there were any fatalities involving people who were strictly following DIR rules. It appears the answer is "no". Ergo, unless there is something else forthcoming, lets just leave it at that. One can argue about whether or not it is necessary to follow all the DIR rules, but unless it can be proven that someone followed everything, including physical fitness, bottle marking, gear setup, etc. and then bought it, the discussion should be over. Wendell Trey wrote: > > Wendell, there is nothing to learn here that everyone does not already > "Noe". If you do not DIR, you should not do it at all. The best way to kill > smart people gas diving is by not following DIR rules ( marking + mixing > protocol). > > What is revealing is that some of my own people don't get it. I will be > ridiculously careful about who dives in the WKPP from now on. > > ---- -Original Message----- > From: Wendell Grogan [mailto:wgrogan@dc*.ne*] > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 9:08 PM > Cc: Quest@Gu*. Com; Techdiver > Subject: Re: DIR Fatalities > > OK, > Lets stop playing Taliban vs. Muhajadeen. > How about if someone actually coughs up some hard data? > All this posturing is not getting anyone anywhere. > Query, > 1) What were the actual reports of the people who were there when this > happened? > 2) What where the results of the Sheriff's inquiry? > 3) What did the coroner's report say? > Anyone who doesn't know, STFU! > Thank you, > Wendell > Trey wrote: > > > > You are correct, Joel, there is nothing to "lie" about and no purpose in > > lying or covering up. Let's supposed for a minute that he was able to hide > > his medical condition from everyone and ended up in the water at Wakulla. > It > > would not have been as a gas diver, and I will list the reasons why if the > > Texas crowd wants to hear what my concerns and the concerns of other team > > members were about Gol. But if he had been in the water, and he had died, > it > > sure as hell would not have been from diving an unmarked bottle or a > bottle > > of pure helium. That would never had been allowed in the water. We sort > and > > check all the bottles before they leave the shore. They are then placed, > and > > the protocol is for teams to do a fly by of their bottles on their way in > to > > make sure they are in the right spot. If not, they move them. We start our > > dives on a deep deco gas so this does not effect bottom gas consumption. > > > > If he had died with no apparent reason, I guarantee you one of my guys, > like > > Bill Mee for example, would have figured it out and directed the coroner > > what to look for, and I would have gotten involved, as this would lose us > a > > permit. At least I would have shown it was not some logistical error, but > > that I got screwed and cheated, like Dave did. I still would have been > > booted for not enforcing my own rules. > > > > The only reason the State of Florida tolerates me with the shower of > > continuous complaints they get about me is because the complaints continue > > to assure them that I am a total asshole when it comes to how I run my > show. > > They actually insist that I run the WKPP, but they will not even talk to > me. > > They only talk to Casey McKinlay, the Project Coordinator. That permit is > in > > Casey's name. > > > > Had Gol died there, then I would indeed be a "lair" for letting him dive. > I > > just got lucky with this one and only because I have had it with my own > team > > and have cracked down severely at the request of the entire BOD. If he had > > gotten in and done support and been killed, I would still have been booted > > out. > > > > Gol is the liar, the cheat and the thief here. He proved what so many > people > > have been saying about the WKPP - that we are full of shit and that my > guys > > ignore me and do it their way ( Chuck calls it "thinking for themselves") > > when I am not on the scene. My hard core does not, but then that is a > small > > , elite group whom I trust. > > > > I have taken everyone off the "roster" now until I interview them and dive > > with them other than my top pros that I am comfortable with, and these are > > guys who are either solid as a rock , like JJ, or guys who have a life , > > family and responsibilities and are seasoned pros at the same time who > have > > long ago dismissed their resentment of my style, and have adapted the same > > level of intolerance for strokes is a game where you die if you lose. > > > > Chuck was not qualified to play that game, and neither is anyone in Texas > > other than Landon in my opinion, and my opinion is all that counts when my > > ass is on the line. As you well know , Joel, from your diving with the > WKPP, > > I do not cut anyone any slack about anything. You did a great job for us, > > and I wish you were still active. > > > > I lead from the front, and I take a personal interest in my guys. I worked > > JJ over about starting his agency and businesses until he did it ( ask JJ > > what the card said that I gave him when he graduated from college) , I > > hammered Casey about being a dive bum and Pizza Hut manager until he quit > , > > went to Business School, got a great job making lots of money, and came > back > > to run the Project for me. These guys sure hated me at the time, but they > > will tell you that asshole or not, I am a serious guy, and generally > always > > right, have pushed them to the limit in every aspect of diving and their > > lives , but then I am 50 years old, and have had the benefit of a lot of > > "been there done that" on all sides of the table, good, bad and ugly. > > > > The "Houston Cavers" cyberdivers and resort divers need to take a seat and > > STFU. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joel Markwell [mailto:joeldm@mi*.co*] > > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 7:40 PM > > To: Chuck Noe; Trey > > Cc: quest@gu*.co*; Techdiver; Houston Cavers > > Subject: Re: DIR Fatalities > > > > What a tiresome load of crap. More People-Who-Hate-George . . . . > > > > Chuck, if you actually had the "evidence" of Trey's lies then why didn't > you > > present it up front? What you wrote and have written to date is not > > evidence, it's hearsay and your opinion. > > > > My impression is that you appear to believe that Jonathan was still an > > active WKPP, cleared to dive by George. Yet, according to George, he was > not > > an active, cleared diver and no one on his team told anyone that Gol was > > cleared and that they must have heard that from Jonathan, not anyone on > the > > team. Do you have any evidence that Jonathan had categorically been > cleared > > to dive with the WKPP other than Jonathan's word? You keep referring to a > > "roster", where did they see this roster? > > > > If your evidence on this is that someone told you from inside the WKPP. > I've > > been involved in a lot of volunteer groups over the years and it's very > > common for the "word" to be the opposite of what the reality is. Unless > > Jonathan was cleared by Trey and you heard it from him, then it's > reasonable > > to assume that he was not cleared to dive with the team. I can't see any > way > > you can prove it unless you can show where Trey sent Jonathan a note > saying > > when and where he was diving. Anything else is hearsay. > > > > I also note that you are claiming that George raises the non-DIR, BS flag > on > > other diving deaths when the report comes back that they died of a "heart > > attack," the catch-all cause of death in techdiving these days, yet > because > > Jonathan was at one time at least a WKPP member and died on a cave dive > that > > George is a hypocrite for claiming that Jonathan's death was > health-related. > > > > It's now well known, largely thanks to this discussion, that Jonathan was > > gravely ill. And the assumption among all those I had spoken with, > including > > a close friend of Jonathan's, was that he probably died of an overpressure > > injury that was probably related to his illness and that he had probably > > returned to diving too soon (any time the fallout from an illness kills > you, > > you returned too soon). Isn't that exactly what Trey was saying right up > to > > the day you started into your attack? Where exactly is the hypocrisy > you're > > talking about? > > > > It seems to me from reading all of this thread on Techdiver that you are > > trying to score points against George, not to intelligently discuss this > > incident. And NO ONE has satisfactorily explained why the hell he had (if > he > > had) a bottle of 100% helium, can you? And aren't YOU jumping the gun with > a > > report that is apparently not complete? > > > > And if that is true, how does that make George a liar about the health > > concerns when that was what was being reported by anyone "in the know" > like > > yourself up until a few days ago -- unless the person I was speaking with > > was lying or hiding things from me, which I doubt. > > > > I don't get it. I think if JJ's the head of the WKPP and there's no > George, > > Chuck and Rich don't blame the WKPP or refer to this as a WKPP accident. > It > > just looks like a vendetta against a guy whom they hate. George is often > an > > asshole about these things, yes. He's insensitive, yes. But how is this > > suddenly a WKPP problem? This wasn't a WKPP-sponsored dive was it? > > > > Finally, it's just more of the BS that I hate about cave diving. We have > one > > group that is objectively the most successful cave diving exploration > group > > in the world with a brash, abrasive and irritating leader with absolutely > no > > online manners (a common condition, BTW) and yet who promotes safety and > > effective diving techniques that almost everyone agrees, work. > > > > On the other hand we have a guy or group of guys who have an axe to grind. > > That doesn't mean you're exaggerating or lying or jumping to conclusions, > > but it sounds bad. Maybe everything you say IS honest and correct and > > presented with the best of intentions, but by getting into a petty, > > profanity-laced argument online without any real proof other than your > word, > > you make it impossible for anyone who might be neutral in this discussion > to > > believe you. If you're right, you screwed-up. > > > > For myself, I prefer an effective asshole over a friendly incompetent > where > > things like cave diving are concerned. My skydiving instructor was an > > asshole and so was my karate instructor. That's probably why I liked the > > Patton figure so much. He was an overbearing ass, but he's the ass you'd > > call when you have Germans in your backyard. > > > > If you guys really have anything solid to add other than bitching at > George > > then let's hear it, but this carping at George when there appears to be > > nothing to gain except maybe proving that he's an jerk (or that you are) > is > > a complete and utter waste of time. > > > > You want to flush out a liar, ask the folks over at the CDS or the IUCRR > why > > it is that over a year ago they publicly made a promise to me on these > lists > > (Cavers, I think) to release the diving accident data that Jeff Bozanic > has > > been sitting on for years to the public. That never happened, despite > nearly > > daily efforts and reminders of that promise: NADA. That's something that > > could actually do some good, a searchable database of cave diving > accidents > > that cave divers could refer to for safety info. What a great learning > tool > > that could be. Wouldn't that be a good use of your energies instead of > this > > Holy Grail search for proof that GIII is a liar? > > > > And if he is, so what? Are the lies relevant? The only thing that is > > relevant is whether or not you'd trust GIII in a water-filled cave with > you > > and I can answer that one easily. > > > > There is a real lack of focus on this list. We have a dead diver and you > > guys are arguing personalities. George engages in hyperbole, gee, you guys > > really blew the lid off that one, congratulations! > > > > JoeL > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* > > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* > > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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