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Thanks George, It's gems like this that keep me wading through the BS here on techdiver. Thanks again. Chuck R >From: trey@ne*.co* (Trey) >To: "Charles Roth" <divr555@ho*.co*>, <techdiver@aquanaut.com>, >"Quest@Gu*. Com" <quest@gu*.co*> >Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock >Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 08:52:52 -0500 > > > The short version of the answer is that we came up with this ( 12 on , 6 >off )by trying everything and arriving at that. We knew from any of our >diving that long exposures to higher ppo2s left us feeling like we had a >chest cold. We started out with the usual crap that is taught out there ( >20 >on then break ) and found that to be useless. We found loss of vital >capacity with these regimens. Now we have no such negative results. > > The oxygen takes less than 12 minutes to reach as high an effective >saturation level as is useful. Beyond that the body reacts by constricting >blood vessels everywhere which limits off gassing, by trying to protect the >lining of the lungs and hence thickens the transfer area by adding cells >and >excreting mucous which impedes gas transfer, and by causing swelling of the >lung tissue which further reduces gas exchange capability, not to mention >scarring and long term damage that in my opinion will come back to haunt >the >agencies who teach the baloney. > > Returning to a more normoxic ppo2 will reverse these effects. However, >if >you do not return soon enough, the effects take a lot longer to reverse. >The >big and important thing here is not to depend on reversing this action, but >to preempt it and keep it from fully developing and thus make what does >occur easier to reverse and at the same time actually improve your off >gassing by opening the capillaries back up and allowing gas to escape from >the tissues into the blood. This "toggling" back and forth has proven to be >the absolute best method of gas use in decompression. DIR deco. > > If you fail to do this at any point in the deco using high ppo2s you >will >merely be holding gas in tissues which may expand before it can be removed >as you move up - another massive flaw in all of the existing deco programs. > > As you get higher in the water column, off gassing is more safely and >effectively achieved by the moving the gradient and letting gas bubble into >the bloodstream and be caught and removed by the lungs, but lower down this >will not work - one more huge flaw in deco programs. > > You really should look on the WKPP site and read some of my profiles and >decompressions on the longer dives to see all the massive deviations from >what is thought to be correct by the agencies. > > In fact, I will tell you right now that this is just like deep air - the >same idiots who fought for their precious deep air are the ones who teach >the most incorrect deco and theories of deco. The same people - give them a >wide berth in all areas of diving since you can NOT teach pigs to sing. > > If want real information, come to the proven sources. > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Charles Roth [mailto:divr555@ho*.co*] >Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 2:53 AM >To: trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com >Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock > > >Trey, >In fear of sounding stupid, yes, I would really like to know how you all >came up with this. Or at least point me in the right direction to find the >resources about this. Thanks. > >Chuck R > > > >From: trey@ne*.co* (Trey) > >To: "Isaac Callicrate" <icallicrate@ho*.co*>, <mjblackmd@ya*.co*>, > ><techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock > >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:10 -0500 > > > > > >Isaac, we have found that 12 minutes on, 6 minutes off is the ideal. We > >only > >do oxygen at 30 feet in a habitat where we have caves that accommodate > >this. > >Otherwise we do oxygen at 20 feet or slightly less in the water with the > >same schedule. If anyone wants to go back over why we do this and how we > >determine bottom gas , deco gas and exposure ( or how we arrived at what >we > >do), I can repeat it . > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Isaac Callicrate [mailto:icallicrate@ho*.co*] > > >Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 2:51 AM > > >To: mjblackmd@ya*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com > > >Subject: Re: Oxygen Clock > > > > > > > > >Im not sure why everyone is harping on who this guy is or what he > > >has posted > > >in the past instead of answering his questions. > > >Am I missing something in the charter that says you have to rate an > >answer > > >or that previous posts disqualify you from getting one? > > >Ill give it a shot even though there are probably more informed >qualified > > >people on this list that should be. > > >I see WKPP as crossing the grey area between recreational and > > >working diving > > >(watch out for OSHA, ADC, and USCG). They are performing dives where >more > > >compartments are saturated than most other recreational profiles. > > >They have > > >been diving similar profiles over and over so have built up an amount >of > > >historical data combined with some doppler research that they have used > >to > > >make assumptions about their profiles. > > >I dont think anyone can say right or wrong yet. If their people > > >arent having > > >DCS manifestations or O2 toxicity issues than I would definately > > >say that by > > >being the guinea pig and letting the rest reap the rewards of the > > >data they > > >are rising above. > > >Please do the math on a Navy standard TT 6A with 50/50 @ 165' and 100% >@ > > >60'. Do it on a Navy single exposure of 100% at 25' for 240 minutes. >Why > > >havent you e-mailed them? Please CC me when you do. I think it is > > >publicaffairs@ne*.na*.na*.mi* > > >WKPP isnt the only one that challenges theoretical formulas and > > >assumptions > > >with historical data. Commercial, military, hyperbaric facilities all > >have > > >modified the standard thinking on the CNS clock. > > >My personal feelings, I wouldnt recommend pushing the clock on a >working > > >dive when not required. For recreational dives, there is no need > > >to push it > > >when you are having fun. If you use a habitat or a chamber or > > >maybe at rest > > >during deco with surface support, the risk is minimized. > > >I dont think that taking breaks off O2 is going to significantly > > >effect your > > >susceptibility to a CNS hit. That is speculation and if anyone has data > >to > > >prove otherwise I would love to examine and try to push it through to > >some > > >people. > > >About cumulative pulmonary issues, I would absolutely take breaks every > > >20-25 min for extended exposures. With increases as neccessary. > > >The only big no-no I see is deco on 100% @ >1.6 w/o a ffm, hat, or in a > > >controlled environment. I dont think WKPP is doing that. I think > > >they use a > > >habitat for extended oxygen. Their protocol incorperates breaks between > >O2 > > >periods. > > >What data is NOAA basing their CNS clocking off of? Historical or > > >Empirical? > > >Do you side with someones calculator or slide rule? > > >For technical diving I think everyone should be taught to do a > > >personal risk > > >analysis for Accelerated Deco vs O2 tox. > > >Where do you draw the line? We can use good models for DCS and pretty > >much > > >say if you do this profile you will get bent. O2 clock is more like > > >speeding. Doing 25 is safer than 65 or 100 or 20,000. We dont know > > >where you > > >cross the line to get in a guaranteed O2 "accident". We need more data. > > >All said, everyone enjoy your hit, have the ME e-mail me. > > > > > >>From: "Michael J. Black" <mjblackmd@ya*.co*> > > >>To: Aquanaut Mail <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > >>Subject: Oxygen Clock > > >>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:26:40 -0800 (PST) > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > >-- > > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > >-- > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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