We are just sick of baloney and lies being used to take a free ride off of
us. I looked at that guy's website today - a total moron, and there is no
other word for it. He is just hoping that there are plenty of people out
there who do not know any better.

You have got to see the pictures of the stroke gear to understand why he
sells anything at all. Starwars Bar Scene.

Anyway, I am not letting up until the bullshit is dispelled.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: cavers-admin@sa*.or* [mailto:cavers-admin@sa*.or*]On Behalf
>Of Mark hanes
>Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 1:00 PM
>To: Trey; Jess Armantrout; Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com; Cavers@Ca*.Co*;
>Quest@Gu*. Com
>Cc: Wkpp@Ya*. Com
>Subject: Re: [cavers] Scooter Debunking
>
>
>I personally think you are wasting alot of time debunking or even thinking
>about debunking.
>you arent in it for the money and they are...the point is all the records
>have been broken using your scooters, and you have a passion for DIR.
>forget the wannabes..they have a right to try to make money...it all comes
>out in the wash...unfortunatly you guys have to do the dirty work of
>recovery..and....err rescue.
>without this group and the WKPP I wouldnt have a clue
>thanks for being honest..upfront and brave enough to back up your claims.
>dont beat this dead horse any more...LOL
>Mark
>a recreational cave diver who has learned alot here.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
>To: "Jess Armantrout" <trout@ca*.co*>; "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com"
><techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Cavers@Ca*.Co*" <cavers@ca*.co*>;
>"Quest@Gu*. Com" <quest@gu*.co*>
>Cc: "Wkpp@Ya*. Com" <wkpp@ya*.co*>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 5:26 PM
>Subject: RE: [cavers] Scooter Debunking
>
>
>>
>> Jess - Jarrod , Robert and I all are totally sick of the low lifes
>> attempting to get a free ride off of us. These exist as parasites because
>of
>> us. They use lies about us and our gear to further themselves and mislead
>> people for profit.
>>
>> I don't care what the strokes buy, and I really do not want real strokes
>> with my stuff, and so far I have been fairly lucky in that
>regard. Strokes
>> hate the real thing. In JJ's case, he  has no choice, he is running a
>> business, and he can not screen his customers other than in the case of
>the
>> Halcyon Rebreather where the training is only conducted by GUE which
>itself
>> serves as a stroke filter because a stroke can not pass a GUE rebreather
>> course, I promise you that.
>>
>> In my case, scooters are the lifeblood of our Project, not my business. I
>> make more money in a week at my job than Rodney and I together could take
>in
>> "profits" in a year off of these things. Maintaining and developing these
>> critical tools is done by selling some to outside people or groups. This
>> supports the project as well as the fleet of existing scooters in all
>hands.
>> I personally do these because I personally bet my ass on them every time
>we
>> dive, and I am responsible for the safety of the entire team. I want my
>> hands on every scooter that goes in the water at WKPP, and I want to
>> maintain constant contact with these devices. I see no other way to do
>that
>> but to do it myself, and I like doing it. I personally have about 20
>> scooters.
>>
>>  Luckily, they do not break that often and they are easy to fix, or I
>would
>> be a busy boy.
>>
>>  But otherwise you are right - the strokes deserve what they get, and a
>ton
>> of them got f**d in the process of trail and error out of these other
>> clowns, and are still taking it in the pail.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jess Armantrout [mailto:trout@ca*.co*]
>> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 4:55 PM
>> To: Trey; Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com; Cavers@Ca*.Co*; Quest@Gu*. Com
>> Cc: Wkpp@Ya*. Com
>> Subject: Re: [cavers] Scooter Debunking
>>
>>
>> Chief,
>> Who cares what the strokes buy?  The players know the score.
>>
>> Trout
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Trey
>>   To: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com ; Cavers@Ca*.Co* ; Quest@Gu*. Com
>>   Cc: Wkpp@Ya*. Com
>>   Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 7:37 AM
>>   Subject: [cavers] Scooter Debunking
>>
>>
>>   As per the usual, Rod Nairnes is taking the tack with me that everyone
>> else takes when failing to come up with an intelligible argument against
>> what I am saying or doing. Below I have taken some misinformation, lies,
>and
>> complete bullshit from Rod's website about my scooter and have put it in
>> italics in a different color. My comments are in this font.
>>
>>   FROM ROD's SITE in green italics, my comments in black :
>>
>>   improvements over the Gavin, the following is a short list that
>> immediately come to mind, I'm sure there's many more...
>>
>>   1) The first big difference is that the battery pack & motor clip
>>
>>   together inside the UV-18 creating a single unit. In the Gavin my
>>
>>   buddy dives, the battery pack is loose, simply resting on top of
>>
>>   the motor. This makes charging the batteries and working on the
>>
>>   scooter, placing weights for buoyancy and trim etc much easier
>>
>>   with the UV-18.
>>
>>   complete and utter baloney. The SS scooter is hard wired to the motor
>> compartment with hardware store crap. The wiring then runs up through the
>> battery pack and connects at the top. To take this mess apart is a
>> nightmare. The connections are cheap crap and the upper connector is
>cheap.
>> We have an access port in the motor lid for vacuum testing and inspection
>so
>> the this lid does not need to be unlatched or the connections
>disturbed to
>> check it. To visually see the whole motor, you merely unlatch the lid and
>> lift it off.
>>
>>   We are using $68 worth of gold plated superconnectors to plug the
>battery
>> packs into the motor lid with sealing fittings. We do not constantly
>unplug
>> our scooter, we pin the trigger for transport. We do not want to wear out
>> these critical connections. There is no loosening of these connections.
>They
>> are the highest quality connectors available. Our battery pack is a unit
>> that can be changed out in seconds.  To charge the scooter, there is a
>> charging connector under the nose cone. The nose cone locks the batteries
>in
>> position. I make three choices of nose cone : nylon, pvc, and
>hdpe for any
>> of the scooters.
>>
>>   ) The UV-18 appears to be manufactured to finer tolerances, so
>>
>>   that the internal bulkheads only just slide inside the outer shell
>>
>>   and presumable provide extra support if the outer compresses at all.
>>
>>   The outer "shell" of the Gavin is PVC pipe with a 3/8 wall. I would
>> withstand 300 feet with NO bulkheads even if the pvc bulkheads were not
>part
>> of the battery pack. HDPE is like butter, and even in the lights we make
>we
>> have to bulkhead that little canister or is crushes immediately. I can
>> bulkhead mine for any depth,and have them set now for 500 feet. The PVC
>body
>> is lighter , thinner, accommodates more inside room, is stiffer,
>unbreakable
>> and if you rip out the latches or otherwise find a way to scar a sealing
>> surface, a new body costs 40 bucks - big deal. Or you can weld
>it with hot
>> air and rescrew it or sand off the scar. When hdpe is used for
>underground
>> pipe, they have to put a V shield over it because the mere weight of the
>> earth over it crushes it. Not the right material for a scooter body. We
>get
>> away with it in the lights due to the small diameter and bulkheading ever
>> few inches ( lid, bottom and between the batteries). I use the
>pvc body on
>> my hdpe scooters as well.
>>
>>
>>
>>   3) The UV-18 has a simple connector routed to the top of the scooter,
>>
>>   which makes switching the unit on simply a case of popping the lid and
>>
>>   plugging the connectors together. In the Gavin scooter the battery
>>
>>   connectors are hidden under the battery pack, so you have to take all
>> the outer shell off and struggle with the weight of the batteries. This
>has
>>
>>   lead to my buddy connecting everything while on shore and leaving his
>>
>>   scooter "live" all the time we're on his RIB.
>>
>>   More nonsense: to get to the connectors you merely stand the Gavin on
>its
>> nose and unclip the tail. You can completely dismantle a Gavin in less
>than
>> one minute. You can change the motor out in 2 minutes, you can
>replace any
>> part in less than 2 minutes. The battery connectors as well as the reed
>> switch plugs run through openings in the side of the motor lid and plug
>in.
>> They are set so that the battery pack above it prevents them from coming
>> off. A little more thought from REAL experience scooter diving for years
>in
>> real dives where the scooters are truly life support equipment went into
>> these details.
>>
>>
>>
>>   4) The UV-18 comes with a throttle where as the Gavin is operated by a
>>
>>   plastic trigger. The throttle works much better, is more comfortable
>>
>>   and is much more robust (it also comes with a lock screw). The trigger
>>
>>   on my friend's scooter broke on the 2nd or 3rd use.
>>
>>   More nonsense: there is nothing to "break" the trigger. Ask anyone who
>> does real diving why we use the handles and trigger, and why we would
>never
>> use a twist throttle. Ask Buchaly and Waldbrenner who hold the European
>> record. Ask  Jarrod Jablonski. Ask anyone who does real diving what the
>many
>> tricks of the trigger are. Ask yourself why the best in the business do
>> things the way they do, and ask yourself if the guys ( WKPP ) who
>developed
>> this , the Halcyon RB, the lights, the wings, backplate , the rigging
>style,
>> DIR , teamwork, backup lights and every other thing that is the
>best if we
>> would make or do something that was not optimal when it is so easy for us
>to
>> make or do anything we want any time we want? You saw how long it took me
>to
>> make a proper version of the SS - about two weeks from the time
>I got sick
>> of Rod's lies and his little buddies pumping out anonymous lies ( which
>> Alton is working on now, so we should have a name for you all soon from
>that
>> nonsense).
>>
>>   Go to http://www.gavinscooters.com to see the scooters in
>detail, go the
>> http://www.WKPP.org to see them in use, or go to
http://www.gue.com to see
> more pictures and uses of these devices.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cavers mailing list
> cavers@ca*.co*
> http://www.cavers.com/mailman/listinfo/cavers

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