I hope you're not comparing the build quality of an Italian sports car with
a Gavin scooter!!! Strewth!

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicolai M. Tousaint [mailto:nick@ak*.co*]
Sent: 05 November 2001 14:29
To: Trey
Cc: bryon@be*.co*; pina; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*; Cavers@Ca*.Co*;
Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
Subject: RE: GI and SS to Merge


A Ferrari will always be a Ferrari, and will cost it´s price,
no matter how many Japanese cars come out a third of the price !

he who believes the cheap one is the same, has never ride a real one
and probably  will never do !

Nicolai M. Toussaint
DIR Akumal, Mexico
www.gue.com
Quality Dive Instruction, in Mexico´s cave country, the best in the world.
www.halcyon.net
DIR equipment repairs, sales, maintenance


----- Original Message -----
From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
To: Bryon Bertrim <bryon@be*.co*>; pina <pina3@be*.ne*>; E.N. Von
<evlink2001@ho*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; Cavers@Ca*.Co*
<cavers@ca*.co*>; Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:24 AM
Subject: RE: GI and SS to Merge


>
> Please, Byron, the baloney ............ "easy to clone" - "make it for
> 2000"? Make what? Mine or the baloney? Rod an engineer? Try high school
> draftsman - he was grossly overpaid at 12 bucks - you must mean Canadian.
> Look at his website for the badmouthing. You want your bullshit taken
> seriously, see Rod. You want the facts, see me.
>
> While I do fill WKPP members first, I ask them up front on each run. That
> does not interfere with anyone else, and anyone else who has one can tell
> you. I have hundreds of these out there, and the things I have to fix take
> minutes.
>
> Go back and read what Pina said about the genesis of these scooters. You
> really miss the whole point, don't you.
>
> Besides, as per the usual, you are proving my points exactly. At any rate,
> now you have something that has a better, less expensive version available
> that performs correctly.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bryon Bertrim [mailto:bryon@be*.co*]
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 5:55 PM
> To: pina; Trey; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*; Cavers@Ca*.Co*;
> Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
> Subject: GI and SS to Merge
>
>
> WOW, i realize this is a touchy issue and so close to home for you too.
Now
> we know who gets all GIs best service.
>
> This scooter market is tiny and no one is going to get rich. Sort of like
> the dive business. Want to make a small fortune start with a large one.
This
> is one area I'm glad to see so many basement pioneers. Lets face it, the
> Gavin Scooter is not that complex and is easy to clone. Others will
follow.
> I hope they drive the price way down. The most expensive part is the
Oceanic
> motor. Hell a guy down the road took his Gavin to a local high tech
machine
> shop they blue printed it now he is building and selling them for 2K.
Almost
> like the open source SW market. If George really wants support he should
> publish the blue prints and the tricks of the trade, encourage everyone to
> build his own or buy parts and be happy that he was responsible for the
> design. That's what this industry needs as a true pioneer.
>
> I don't know Rod's history but he is a good engineer, and is very detailed
> about his units. He is not trying to cut corners or build a subgrade
> product. Albeit he will never have the cave experience that GI has but I'm
> sure GI is not personally hand building every component that goes into
each
> unit nor has the skill and interest. Rod's abilities and workman ship seem
> high. I expect both are very good products. I have known Rod for a little
> over 2 yrs now. And he refuses to bad mouth GI, the Gavin or Halcyon, he
> makes it quite clear its not something he wants any part of. He is just to
> busy trying to put food on table like any of us. He once told me that
> Halcyon was only paying him $12 bucks a hour and he could not afford to
work
> for them. And for that meager amount no one owes anybody any loyalty.
>
> Rod is quite dedicated to building scooters. Its not some part-time hobby
> for him. He has built a full-time, full service business rightly or
wrongly
> and wants to support his customers as best possible. As a customer i
> appreciate this, its no different from Halcyon when i buy a BC or dive
> light. Why should i expect anything less from my scooter manufacturer. I
can
> not understand why GI bothers. Maybe he and Rod should link up and build a
> real business. Sounds like a good partnership, I tell you we would all get
a
> better product. Only thing is GI could not be in charge of sales. He makes
a
> great VC, CEO or spokesman but he would piss off to many customers.
>
> When i was ready to buy a scooter from GI, i barley got an email answered,
> maybe a terse one liner at best. I was afraid that i would unknowing piss
> him off and never get a part or a fix. This was crazy. Why would anyone in
> his right mind pay someone to treat them this bad. There are hundreds of
> examples and references like this. Also GI and even the old WKPPers now EE
> trainers all made it quite clear that GIs first support cycles go to new
> WKPP crew, old crew came next and at the bottom of the list were the un
> knowns like me. Even Carmichael had to get Rod to repair his Gavin, GI did
> not have the time. Most are either fixing them themselves or have someone
> local fix them. And Gavins break just like SS units. Now with a little
real
> competition Trey is sounding a little customer friendly. This is good.
>
> So it sounds like we should thank all of them GI, Rod and Bill Gavin. Bill
G
> did the original designs, GI took those designs and improved on them, Rod
> took those designs and improved on them, GI takes Rodney's designs, who is
> next. Every time someone pisses GI off the price goes down and the product
> gets better. COOL
>
> BB
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*>
> To: "Bryon Bertrim" <bryon@be*.co*>; "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "E.N.
> Von" <evlink2001@ho*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; "Cavers@Ca*.Co*"
> <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:34 PM
> Subject: RE: scooters
>
>
> >   George developed these scooters 10 years ago for deep, long range
> > exploration in the WKPP. There was nothing else available. He bore all
of
> > the expense of developing and perfecting this tool. Initially, they were
> > only made available to WKPP members, but later other groups showed an
> > interest and extras were produced and sold to help fund the Project. All
> > expenses of the project are paid by George and have been paid by George
> for
> > ten years.
> >
> >   Rodney contacted George and Robert Carmichael about getting a job here
> so
> > he could move to the States. George arranged one for him at one of his
> > father's companies based on Rodney's experience in oz making fishing
> lures.
> > Pipewelders is one of his fathers companies. Robert ended up hiring him
at
> > Brownies. Robert asked George to show Rodney how to work on the
scooters.
> >
> > Rod then quit, came up with a scooter of his own, and is sitting around
> > riding on our success while producing a kluged  product that reflects
zero
> > understanding of what makes scooters good or bad, and then badmouths us
at
> > the same time with complete lies and a total misunderstanding of why we
do
> > what we do and plays to an audience of whiners who like to hate George.
> Ask
> > anyone who has dealt with George on scooters or anything else directly
and
> > you will get a different answer that the crap that the losers put on
here.
> > Ask any of the more than 200 people who own one of George's scooters,
and
> > ask any of the people who have bullshit clones that fail to perform like
a
> > Gavin.
> >
> > Then, to add insult to injury . either Rod or one of his little buddies
> put
> > out a series of anonymous posts making all kinds of false claims about
> > George and his scooters. That was it. George warned what he would do -
> make
> > the same thing only a hell of a lot better and cheaper, and it took him
no
> > time at all to do just that.
> >
> > Enough is enough. Some people never get the message about fighting
George
> > and the WKPP and doing so anonymously or with bullshit and lies. George
> > merely had his machine shop make up a scooter looking the same ( tapered
> on
> > the end like that makes any difference ) and one piece inside and out (
> > Rodney's is NOT although he advertises that it is).  However, he solved
> all
> > of the problems of Rod's scooter and made a far improved version for
less
> > money that still mates up with all existing scooters made by George, and
> > like all scooters made by George, has a lifetime warranty and superior
> > performance.
> >
> > So for those who think the submersion is somehow better, think again.
But,
> > you can get a far better version of the it cheaper, or you can get the
> > original Gavin. For those with existing fleets of gavins, these new ones
> > will mate up in all of the modular components. Once again, results talk,
> > bullshit walks .
> >
> > What happened to the hypocrite who claimed Rod had "improved" on the
> > design? Which is it, copy or improvement? make up your minds. It is
always
> > the worst hypocrites who do the loudest howling.
> >
> > The fact is you can have any scooter you want from George, Halcyon, EE
and
> > it will be made by people who have the track record to know what they
are
> > doing and the ability to back it up. is there anything else you guys
want
> > to fight with George, JJ, Halcyon, EE or WKPP about ? Anyone feel lucky?
> > George has two courses of action he has followed with liars and
anonymous
> > bullshitters - 1) let Alton Hall handle it,  2) do something more to the
> > point. Have it either way. Sooner or later the idiots will get sick of
> > losing and shut the hell up.
> >
> > You guys only hurt one person with this - yourselves. Now you have
> scooters
> > that are superseded by a faster, superior product that is sold for less
> > money. You have killed your own market and your own hero, and made all
of
> > yourselves look like idiots once again.
> >
> > --p
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bryon Bertrim [mailto:bryon@be*.co*]
> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:56 AM
> > To: Trey; pina; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*; Cavers@Ca*.Co*;
> > Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
> > Subject: Re: scooters
> >
> >
> > Who is copying who here George?
> > BB
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
> > To: <trey@ne*.co*>; "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*>; "E.N. Von"
> > <evlink2001@ho*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>; "Cavers@Ca*.Co*"
> > <cavers@ca*.co*>; "Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:37 AM
> > Subject: RE: scooters
> >
> >
> > >
> > > By the way, I make both types of scooter now - the original Gavin and
> > > another one that is made from HDPE and is tapered at the back, only
mine
> > > really is one piece and does not have the bullshit aluminum pipe with
> > orings
> > > as a motor compartment like the "submersion", does snot have the kluge
> > > wiring like the submersion , and does not have the convoluted battery
> > > arrangement nor the ridiculous "motorcycle handle".
> > >
> > > My version is interchangeable with all Gavins I have made, and uses
the
> > same
> > > internal parts, works the same way. For instance, mine has $68 cost of
> > gold
> > > connectors, my motor compartment is one with the tail, and the body is
> > hard
> > > pvc while the rest is soft HDPE. The nose keys the batteries.
> > >
> > > I made this because I am sick of strokes copying our hard work and
> > profiting
> > > from it, like the submersion guy. This version of the scooter is
cheaper
> > to
> > > produce than the Gavin, so I will be selling it cheaper, and a hell of
a
> > lot
> > > cheaper than submersion.
> > >
> > > I will also be maintaining the Gavins for our use and for those who
want
> > the
> > > sure thing at the extreme depths that we know the Gavin is made for.
> > >
> > > The only changes I am making to the Gavin are to offer the HDPE nose
for
> > > those who want it with the hard nose for super deep, and am using a
> screw
> > in
> > > reed switch if you want it to adjust the trigger more easily.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]
> > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 7:28 AM
> > > To: pina; E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*
> > > Subject: RE: scooters
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The scooters pretty much all act the same regardless of size if they
are
> > > balanced correctly. Look at the pictures of JJ and I scootering and
> towing
> > > magnum's. The big scooters have more lateral stability in motion so
are
> > > actually easier and more comfortable to ride than little ones.
> > >
> > > Pina rides a magnum back to the far reaches of Manatee with no
problem.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pina [mailto:pina3@be*.ne*]
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:44 PM
> > > To: E.N. Von; quest@gu*.co*
> > > Subject: RE: scooters
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Just get a Gavin and DIR - no sense fluffing about with other stuff
that
> > > won't get you anywhere.
> > >
> > > --pina
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: E.N. Von [mailto:evlink2001@ho*.co*]
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:25 PM
> > > To: quest@gu*.co*
> > > Subject: scooters
> > >
> > >
> > > I am interesed in starting to learn to drive a scooter.  Can anyone
give
> a
> > > good suggestion for a starter scooter.  I have a feeling that a Gavin
> > would
> > > be quite a bit to handle for a new driver, but I may be wrong, having
> > never
> > > having the chance to see one in person.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for you help.
> > >
> > > E.N. Von
> > > evlink2001@ho*.co*
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> > >
> > >
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