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Aldo, Maybe it's a difference in location. I'm not sure where you are. The first statement of "everything is cultural until it's said it's not" is the problem. Not knocking archeologists here but at the rate that they move (slow and meticulous) most of the wrecks in the North East of the US would long be gone by the time they dived them and decide that it's OK to dive. I guess in the Mediterranean where ships can stay on the bottom for thousands of years this might make a little more sense. If you leave them down there long enough even a ship that wend down yesterday will be of interests to people 2000 years from now... Also, In my area o the world, artifacts are not just lying around. I have gone on wrecks where the next week whole areas of the wreck are covered with sand, yes in one week! When I'm going, I'm not just swimming around and picking things up. I'm locating a spot and digging down through 2 feet of sand. Without me moving the sand and bringing it up, aint no one going to see what I find. I think that's one of the big points that artifact hunters and archeologists miss on. I'm certainly not talking about wrecks in the Great Lakes, Mediterranean or other shelters waters where a wreck can sit in near pristine conditions for hundreds or thousands of years. Like I said before, the average live in the North East for a wreck is about 150 years until it's swallowed. Most wrecks that went down in the mid 1800's only have the engine (if it was steam) and maybe a foot of the boiler(s) sticking out of the sand. No ribs at all, you have to dig to find them. On many of the wrecks, the only reason you know where the bow is, is because someone has dug ribs and followed them. Holes that are dug with scooters or dredges are usually covered over by the next day. On the subject of spear fishing, I'm talking strictly about my area. No reefs around where to shoot a Parrot fish on. You have to go the wrecks and dive them. I still think that around here, a party boat will certainly bring up way more fish than a diving boat! I'm not a spear fisherman or a lobster hunter. Around here most have to go out way more than 5km to get the fish. Most of the wrecks off NY and NJ that are of interest are more then 10mk off shore. There are some that are further insure but these wrecks usually don't last even 150 years before they are covered in sand or so broken up and scattered that no one knows about them. Maybe on a steel wreck but then again, I doubt most steel wrecks from 100-150 years ago are of any interest to anyone (except fivers and fishermen).... Art. -----Original Message----- From: Aldo Solari [APS] [mailto:aldo.solari@ho*.se*] Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:09 PM To: Paltz, Art Subject: Re[4]: UNESCO Art, there are three points I would like to clarify: (1). There are international guidelines (given by UNESCO) for the concept of "cultural/natural heritage" on both sea and land. In principle, everything *is* cultural/natural heritage unless declared otherwise. And this goes beyond the interest of many of those divers who "take a piece home" (ie. deny to others the very same sites where they themslves liked to dive); (2). Combination of scuba gear + spear fishing is forbidden in many countries. The reason is very clear: spear fishing combined to scuba gear imply the local extinction of many coastal fish species. A well of scientific (exclusion) studies have been conducted on this in the Mediterranean; even the sole presence of divers (who just watch) is known to disturb many species. (3). Mixing up spear fishing and trawling is demagogy: spear fishing is aimed at coastal species while trawling is done on demersal or pelagic species at a minimum of 5 km off the shore. The species are different. While trawling is known to collapse fish populations so does spear fishing in coastal systems. The level of education in the diver population is low both here and in the US. Training is solely technical, quality is bad and it lacks several subjects which are highly significant. There should be course work at university level for those interested in a diving license. The University of Barcelona (Spain), for instance, has started such couses and it is a very fine initiative. Wreckers should study basics in law, cultural heritage, social anthropology and archeology. Nobody will get killed by going to some seminars, reading some material and doing some field work with specialized instructors. In the US, course work is always expensive. However, you could talk to many people from public universities who -I am sure- will be more than glad to talk you through 4-5 seminars on diving related aspects for free. Cheers, ---- aldo.solari@ho*.se* (fisheries biologist) Home page, www.ccbb.ulpgc.es/fish-ecology/solaris ---- Art.Paltz@R2*.CO* APRC> Aldo, I for one being a wreck diver who does take APRC> artifacts. Most of the wrecks I dive on don't just have APRC> stuff lying around on them. It's a lot of work to find APRC> them. Do the research, get plans, take measurements and APRC> then dig. I don't think I'm digging on anything of cultural APRC> heritage. If I was diving on a ship off Greece and pulling APRC> up 4000 year old Amphora's then I'd see your point. A cage APRC> lamp that is buried under 2 feet of sand from a WW II APRC> liberty ship is of cultural significance? Give me a break. APRC> If a wreck is considered a "no taking" wreck like most APRC> battle chips carrying munitions then I'll respect that. If APRC> it's not of interest to just swim around then I won't dive APRC> it. But there aren't many wrecks in my area that stand up APRC> high enough to be of any interest really to me. APRC> I think you mentioned spear fishing. You think that the APRC> depletion of a species of fish is caused by divers? What APRC> about trawlers? A trawler in my area can certainly bring up APRC> more fish in one day than a dive boat can in a whole APRC> season. Same with party boats. Going to kill this industry APRC> too?? APRC> I think what most people are arguing here is that it's WAY APRC> too broad. Limiting all access to anything underwater is APRC> way too broad. It needs to be defined or I think you're APRC> going to see a major drop in the diving community. I know APRC> of many boats in my area that would cease to exist if you APRC> weren't able to take stuff. Swimming around in 130 foot of APRC> water looking at ballast stones, broken timbers or steel APRC> hull plates projecting a whopping 2 feet out of the sand is APRC> no fun to most. I don't know about your area of the world APRC> but in general, in the North East on the US, the life APRC> expectance for most ships is about 150 years before they APRC> sink below the sands never to be seen from again.... Good APRC> reason to protect them huh? Let me repeat, NEVER SEEN FROM APRC> AGAIN...... APRC> Art. APRC> P.S. I'm sure it's a choice of words but using the words "terrorists" in APRC> your previous email was offensive. I live in the NY area and know many APRC> people effected by the Sept. 11 bombings of the World Trade Centers. These APRC> are real terrorists, not divers. Sure it's a bad choice of words but please APRC> be a little more careful when choosing.... APRC> -----Original Message----- APRC> From: Aldo Solari [APS] [mailto:aldo.solari@ho*.se*] APRC> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 11:02 PM APRC> To: techdiver@aquanaut.com APRC> Subject: Re[2]: UNESCO APRC> Michael, personally, I do not have a problem with serious people APRC> who get organized, consult with experts, get funding, contribute APRC> to research, carry out serious projects, etc. There is much need APRC> for doing so and I would like to see more "tech divers" to do APRC> serious work (such as the WKPP does but in other fields). What I APRC> *certainly* find deplorable is the Joe-6-Pack who get together APRC> and go to gutt everything they find. The diving community should APRC> take the stand for what is acceptable praxis both from the moral, APRC> technical and philosphical viewpoints. APRC> Your country, AU, regulates all of these activities very well APRC> and, IMO, it is an example to follow on the institutional level. APRC> ---- APRC> aldo.solari@ho*.se* (fisheries biologist) APRC> Home page, www.ccbb.ulpgc.es/fish-ecology/solaris APRC> ---- APRC> -- APRC> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. APRC> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. APRC> -- APRC> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. APRC> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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