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What the are you talking about? The oxygen portion has nothing to do with
the helium. Let;s walk through this again. Go to GUE or WKPP web sites and
see out standard mixes or our limits for PPO2 and why, and then go back and
see what is possible and what is not. Clearly, if you are using a 50% oxygen
mix, as we do at 70 feet for deco, your best possibility is 50% helium (
although you will have to have MORE psi of helium than oxygen to make that
mix ).

The point of what I am trying to say is that you can reduce the weight of
the gas in the tank by making it as high in helium as possible. Air, oxygen
or nitrox will be about 6 pounds per 80 cubic feet, while helium will be
less than 2 pounds. The Luxfer tanks swing from 3 pounds positive to 3
pounds negative ( regardless of what any info to the contrary, so do not
start up on that ) in fresh water, plus or minus the weight of the valve ,
regulator, pressure gauge and hardware.

What I am telling you is that if you use the right tank, the right stage
rig, a normal regulator and a plastic pressure gauge, and have enough
helium, you can get that bottle neutral or slightly positive, or at least
make it only slightly negative as in the mixes we might use in let's say 70
feet of water at Manatee. We don't care if it is positive later on. If we
have a problem, we get rid of the empties and run for the door. In salt
water, deco stages should be the Luxfer 50 or 30 so you don't get the big
positive swing, or in our case, we send them up the float line for the crew
to pick off when we use actual stage bottles for a dive.

It is easy for 300 feet - you already pretty much need at least 60% helium
anyway. Helium costs what it costs. I use it because it does not produce the
damage of air, it does not produce the bullshit of narcosis, it is easier to
breathe , it is far easier to decompress from, and it is light. If I do not
have helium, I do not do complicated dives or go beyond 60-80 feet. There is
no need to do so. Last time Pina and I went to the Bahamas to weenie dive,
we stayed at that depth on the walls and could see everything just fine.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: gordon [mailto:gordon@pw*.ne*.ph*]
  Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 4:13 AM
  To: Trey; Gliviak, Jozef; Quest@Gu*. Com; Wkpp@Ya*. Com;
Cavers@Ca*.Co*
  Cc: 'Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com'
  Subject: Re: [wkpp] FW: Redundant Rebreathers & The Doux de Coly


  Trey:

  At 60% Helium are we still talking about a normoxic fill? How much dollars
are we talking per tank fill?

  Gordon
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Trey
    To: Gliviak, Jozef ; Quest@Gu*. Com ; Wkpp@Ya*. Com ;
Cavers@Ca*.Co*
    Cc: 'Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com'
    Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 7:12 PM
    Subject: RE: [wkpp] FW: Redundant Rebreathers & The Doux de Coly


    The inflation device is nothing more than a racing bike innertube wound
around the top of the bottle and inflated to about 1". It is unnecessary if
you :1) use enough helium, 2) use plastic pressure gauges, 3) your hardware
is minimal, and you use the Luxfer tanks. The reason you have not seen it is
that it is not that noticeable in the photos, but look again knowing it is
there and you will see it.

    We used to use it a lot but now even when I dive shallow cave like
Manatee I put enough helium in the mixes to keep the bottles near neutral.
Pina and I like to dive the back of that cave and it takes a few stages to
get there from Catfish and dive without using back gas. This requires that
the stages not be heavy or it will slow you down too much. We have been
using the same sets of doubles without filling them for months in there only
occasionally Haskelling heliox into them to top them off.

    Not all of out guys have Haskells so some of out bottles are not above
the 65-70% helium mark that it takes to keep them neutral, and that is why
we initially used the tubes. We were using them mostly to get large blacks
of bottles way back in the cave, and it worked well. We then deflate them
....
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Gliviak, Jozef [mailto:Jozef.Gliviak@co*.co*]
      Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 3:41 AM
      To: 'Trey'
      Cc: 'Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com'
      Subject: RE: [wkpp] FW: Redundant Rebreathers & The Doux de Coly


      George, can you share with us a picture or description of your tiny
inflation device so we doesn't have to reinvent the wheel?
      Thanx in advance.

      Best regards

        Jozef Gliviak
        Slovakia

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]
        Sent: 11. okt�bra 2001 13:17
        To: John Brett; Wkpp@Ya*. Com; Quest@Gu*. Com>
        Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
        Subject: RE: [wkpp] FW: Redundant Rebreathers & The Doux de Coly


        If one uses Luxfer Al 80's with 65% or more helium, they are neutral
to slightly positive and we can pull a train of them with us, dropping of
sets of two every 1200 feet. We also have a tiny inflation device on the
bottles to make them exactly neutral for carrying long distance.



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bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355545411-13102001><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>What=20
the are you talking about? The oxygen portion has nothing to do with the =
helium.=20
Let;s walk through this again. Go to GUE or WKPP web sites and see out =
standard=20
mixes or our limits for PPO2 and why, and then go back and see what is =
possible=20
and what is not. Clearly, if you are using a 50% oxygen mix, as we do at =
70 feet=20
for deco, your best possibility is 50% helium ( although you will have =
to have=20
MORE psi of helium than oxygen to make that mix ). </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355545411-13102001><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355545411-13102001><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
point of what I am trying to say is that you can reduce the weight of =
the gas in=20
the tank by making it as high in helium as possible. Air, oxygen or =
nitrox will=20
be about 6 pounds per 80 cubic feet, while helium will be less than 2 =
pounds.=20
The Luxfer tanks swing from 3 pounds positive to 3 pounds negative ( =
regardless=20
of what any info to the contrary, so do not start up on that ) in =
fresh=20
water, plus or minus the weight of the valve , regulator, pressure gauge =
and=20
hardware.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355545411-13102001><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355545411-13102001><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>What I=20
am telling you is that if you use the right tank, the right stage rig, a =
normal=20
regulator and a plastic pressure gauge, and have enough helium, you can =
get that=20
bottle neutral or slightly positive, or at least make it only slightly =
negative=20
as in the mixes we might use in let's say 70 feet of water at Manatee. =
We don't=20
care if it is positive later on. If we have a problem, we get rid of the =
empties=20
and run for the door. In salt water, deco stages should be the Luxfer 50 =
or 30=20
so you don't get the big positive swing, or in our case, we send them up =
the=20
float line for the crew to pick off when we use actual stage bottles for =
a=20
dive.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355545411-13102001><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D355545411-13102001><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>It is=20
easy for 300 feet - you already pretty much need at least 60% helium =
anyway.=20
Helium costs what it costs. I use it because it does not produce the =
damage of=20
air, it does not produce the bullshit of narcosis, it is easier to =
breathe , it=20
is far easier to decompress from, and it is light. If I do not have =
helium, I do=20
not do complicated dives or go beyond 60-80 feet. There is no need to do =
so.=20
Last time Pina and I went to the Bahamas to weenie dive, we stayed at =
that depth=20
on the walls and could see everything just fine.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> gordon=20
  [mailto:gordon@pw*.ne*.ph*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 13, =
2001 4:13=20
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Trey; Gliviak, Jozef; Quest@Gu*. Com; =
Wkpp@Ya*. Com;=20
  Cavers@Ca*.Co*<BR><B>Cc:</B> =
'Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com'<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
  Re: [wkpp] FW: Redundant Rebreathers & The Doux de=20
  Coly<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Trey:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>At 60% Helium are we still talking =
about a=20
  normoxic fill? How much dollars are we talking per tank =
fill?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Gordon </FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dtrey@ne*.co* href=3D"mailto:trey@ne*.co*">Trey</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DJozef.Gliviak@co*.co*=20
    href=3D"mailto:Jozef.Gliviak@co*.co*">Gliviak, Jozef</A> ; <A=20
    title=3Dquest@gu*.co* href=3D"mailto:Quest@Gu*. Com">Quest@Gu*. =
Com</A> ; <A=20
    title=3Dwkpp@ya*.co*=20
    href=3D"mailto:Wkpp@Ya*. Com">Wkpp@Ya*. Com</A> ; <A =

    title=3Dcavers@ca*.co*=20
    href=3D"mailto:Cavers@Ca*.Co*">Cavers@Cavers.Com</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:'Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com'">'Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com'</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 12, =
2001 7:12=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [wkpp] FW: =
Redundant=20
    Rebreathers & The Doux de Coly</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D977430211-12102001><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>The inflation device is nothing more than a racing bike =
innertube=20
    wound around the top of the bottle and inflated to about 1". It is=20
    unnecessary if you :1) use enough helium, 2) use plastic pressure =
gauges, 3)=20
    your hardware is minimal, and you use the Luxfer tanks. The reason =
you have=20
    not seen it is that it is not that noticeable in the photos, but =
look again=20
    knowing it is there and you will see it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D977430211-12102001><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D977430211-12102001><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>We=20
    used to use it a lot but now even when I dive shallow cave like =
Manatee I=20
    put enough helium in the mixes to keep the bottles near neutral. =
Pina and I=20
    like to dive the back of that cave and it takes a few stages to get =
there=20
    from Catfish and dive without using back gas. This requires that the =
stages=20
    not be heavy or it will slow you down too much. We have been using =
the same=20
    sets of doubles without filling them for months in there only =
occasionally=20
    Haskelling heliox into them to top them off.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D977430211-12102001><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D977430211-12102001><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Not all of out guys have Haskells so some of out bottles =
are not=20
    above the 65-70% helium mark that it takes to keep them neutral, and =
that is=20
    why we initially used the tubes. We were using them mostly to get =
large=20
    blacks of bottles way back in the cave, and it worked well. We then =
deflate=20
    them ...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
      size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Gliviak,
Jozef =

      [mailto:Jozef.Gliviak@co*.co*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October =
12, 2001=20
      3:41 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Trey'<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
      'Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [wkpp] FW: =
Redundant=20
      Rebreathers & The Doux de Coly<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D816393407-12102001>George, can you share with us a picture =
or=20
      description of your tiny inflation device so we doesn't have =
to=20
      reinvent the wheel?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D816393407-12102001>Thanx in advance.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D816393407-12102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D816393407-12102001>Best regards</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D816393407-12102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D816393407-12102001>  Jozef =
Gliviak</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D816393407-12102001>  Slovakia</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
      class=3D816393407-12102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
        size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Trey=20
        [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> 11. okt=F3bra 2001=20
        13:17<BR><B>To:</B> John Brett; Wkpp@Ya*. Com; =
Quest@Gu*.=20
        Com><BR><B>Cc:</B>
Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE:=20
        [wkpp] FW: Redundant Rebreathers & The Doux de =
Coly<BR></FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D499050311-11102001><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D499050311-11102001><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2>If one uses Luxfer Al 80's with 65% or more helium, =
they are=20
        neutral to slightly positive and we can pull a train of them =
with us,=20
        dropping of sets of two every 1200 feet. We also have a tiny =
inflation=20
        device on the bottles to make them exactly neutral for carrying =
long=20
        distance.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D499050311-11102001><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
        <DIV><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]><!--[if =
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