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>> Get a clue! Florida and Germany did NOT knowingly help these animals. Afghanistan did. << Exactly my point. In their isolation, people in this country lack first-hand experiences and a global perspective. As you apparently are starting to realize, in the war against Terrorism, borders and countries don't apply and are meaningless. Your politicians are lulling you in the believe that attacking foreign territories will be anything but revenge. In reality, it would require a 3-prong approach: 1. Revenge and Punishment those Responsible This is accomplished by a war effort against responsible individuals, governments and their territory. This is what will happen sometime this year or so - and few will see anything wrong with that. 2. Prevent Recurrence This requires anti-terrorism law enforcement efforts. This is what will fall short after all the political energy, money and effort was expended on a "war". 3. Eliminating the breeding ground This is accomplished by assisting groups of nations in working on peaceful solutions to their inner problems, problems with their neighbors or entire regions. The U.S. realizes that and is actively working on that long term process. I have NO problem with avenging the victims! Just realize what you are spending your money on (revenge!) - and what not (eliminate the risk of terrorism against the U.S.!). You can tear up other countries until economic depression shuts down the finances - you are not doing it to wipe out terrorism, you are doing it to make the American public FEEL as if they "did something about it" - and re-elect their leaders in a few years. >> Over time terrorist will be reduced to a small number of ineffective people. << That is where you err. Terrorists are MOST effective as small, loosely connected groups of people drawing on a larger number of silent supporters in any number of civilized countries. Once you listen to your own intelligence community and anti-terrorism experts (not the armchair Generals on this list), you will find out that a territorial war is not doing anything to address the problem - other that firm the resolve of those who survive in every other country in the world (including the U.S. itself!) The warfare against terrorism involves cells of tens or hundreds of individuals in countless civilized countries (including the U.S.), countries that may or may NOT have suspicions about these individuals. If they do, then these countries are bound by due-process laws to act on their suspicions. In many case, basic-rights issues even prevent aggressive supervision or targeting specific groups, just based on profiling. To give you an example, when Europe was fighting the RAF terrorists, they ran into major legal problems when merging national databases, accessing utility billing records for entire states - even though the unusual pattern of electric and gas use allowed them to pinpoint possible safe-houses. So learn from experience: The war against terrorism is not won against governments and their territories, it is fought INSIDE each country (including the U.S.) setting aside their own basic laws, giving special law enforcement agencies emergency powers to violate established laws, ignore basic privacy issues, permit spying and broad profiling against your own citizens and foreign nationals. Heck, you even scream, when Intel puts out a Pentium CPU with a serial number! It requires Congress to allow the FBI, CIA, NSA to have secret dossiers about their citizens, that citizens will have no right to know about. These dossiers will contain personal information, suspicions, theories - and the subject may indeed have never broken any laws - and, may in reality really not be involved with anyone at all. Does that sound like going back in history to you? Does it sound like STASI or KGB to you? Yes, you will have to be willing to give up a lot of your accomplishments in civil rights and turn the clock back and accept the U.S. to become more of a police state. The war against Terrorism is NOT won in Afghanistan - it is a cold war fought in your own country. It is NOT won by sending soldiers abroad - it is fought by giving up privileges at home. And with un-informed people like yourself, the writing is on the wall - America will go the easy/conventional way (Step 1) and then go back to business as usual - skipping the REAL fight (Step 2!). >> That is the problem with liberals. They try to twist the truth and make everyone feel sorry for the criminals. I say it is time to feel sorry for the victims. To hell with the criminals. << Hm - how about responding to something I actually wrote? Best Regards Andy Schmidt -----Original Message----- From: Mike G. [mailto:scuba561@ya*.co*] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 09:53 AM To: Andy Schmidt; techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: RE: Lines in the Sand Andy- Are you trying to compare what Florida and Germany did with what Afghanistan has done?? Are you out of your f*ing mind? Get a clue! Florida and Germany did NOT knowingly help these animals. Afghanistan did. That is the problem with liberals. They try to twist the truth and make everyone feel sorry for the criminals. I say it is time to feel sorry for the victims. To hell with the criminals. Did you see the people in Pakistan dancing in the street? Do you realize that Afghanistan has known where Bin Laden was and did nothing to capture him- even though they know is is planning to kill people? They may not have known where/when/how Bin Laden was going to kill people, but they knew he was going to kill. If we make a couple examples (Afghanistan and Pakistan come to mind) other countries will not only NOT allow people like Bin Laden to stay in their country, but they will most likely help hunt them down and kill them. Over time terrorist will be reduced to a small number of ineffective people. Mike --- Andy Schmidt <Andy_Schmidt@HM*.co*> wrote: > Yep, let's start with the country that harbored > their training camp > (Florida). > > Then the country of residence and where they were > attending a technical > college (Germany). > > Not to forget the country of origin (Saudi > Arabia)... > > Hm... wait a minute... so may be we DO have to turn > on our brains after all? > > I'm all for punishing those who were responsible, > conspiring or otherwise > tolerated these activities. If it takes a war effort > - so be it. Those who > tell themselves there is a quick fix to the problem > are running through the > world with their eyes and ears closed. Nothing is > more certain then that any > reaction will lead to an even bigger > counter-reaction two to five years down > the road. > > That doesn't mean that punishment should be avoided > - just don't lie to > yourself that eliminating terrorists is somehow > equal to eliminating > terrorism. Just like other areas of civil and > political unrest in the past > 100 years: As long as a region is not at peace and > the U.S. finds itself > forced into taking one or the other side and > actively supporting one or the > other party, they will just as certain piss off the > opponents and be > vulnerable to their hatred. Why some Americans > assume that the U.S. can > dictate the battlefield of its foreign policies is > beyond me. For every > American-made or financed weapon fired somewhere in > the world, there is some > family member who instantly became your biggest > enemy. Most of them will > never have the financial and logistical opportunity > to act out their > revenge - but given enough decades in time, there > will always be a few who > are determined enough to bring devastation back to > the U.S. > > So do strike and strike hard - just do it knowingly > that this is only > another step in a bloody escalation that will go on > for a least the next > generation. It is as certain as hell, that more > building will tumble in the > decades to come - for a change, it will no longer > just be abroad. In the > long run, it is the peace process in the Middle East > that is the only hope > for a solution where countries in that region can > address their own > matters - without the U.S. being savior to one side > and devil to the other. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad Wilson [mailto:ac4bw@ya*.co*] > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 03:06 PM > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com > Subject: Re: Lines in the Sand > > > Jim may sound harsh, but you have to realize what > just > happened to us. We have tried to be nice and these > jerks have attacked us over and over again. They > blew > up embassys, and we did little. Some jerk on a raft > took out a billion dollar warship, and we did > NOTHING. > Now, they kill thousands. And that doesn't even > count > the monetary damage to those who's businesses were > destroyed, people who now have no job, and the > massive > amount of just property damage. We are in a state of > total rage. I agree with what I heard my own > Senator, > Zell Miller (D-Georgia and a former Marine) said: > > "Bomb the HELL out of them." He continued saying, So > what if there is collaterial damage. They obviously > didn't care about innocent civilians, why should we > care about theirs. If they get in the way, that's > just > too bad. > > I say we turn those countries who harbor or have > anything to do with terrorists into a freaking > parking > lot. And if the innocent civilians don't want to be > hit, then they better dig in or get outta town. > > Brad > > --- Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> wrote: > > No, no joke. This is all being funded by our oil > > dollars. We just go over > > there and take the damn oil, the fundamentalists > > have no more funds, problem > > solved. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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